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#101 Will

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 04:36 AM

Apparently, you don't know what it is in the Bible, since you're saying you don't believe being homosexual is a sin and the Bible to not considered as God's word. I posted what I've posted in the whole thread (according to you) because the Bible hasn't changed therefore my mind hasn't neither.

#102 Kim.

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 04:43 AM

Apparently, you don't know what it is in the Bible, since you're saying you don't believe being homosexual is a sin and the Bible to not considered as God's word. I posted what I've posted in the whole thread (according to you) because the Bible hasn't changed therefore my mind hasn't neither.


I said, I've read the Bible. I choose to believe it is not a sin. I didn't say it's not God's word, I acknowledge the fact that the Bible--having been written thousands of years ago--was written in a particular historical context that may or may not be relevant today...further implying that what has been written as being accounted for as said by God is an Inspired word of God. Neither you or I can determined what has actually been said BY God, huh?

Agree to disagree, which is why I've said the debate is a moot point that has a tendency to go in circles.
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#103 Monkey Cartwheels

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 01:44 PM

Kim, why do you not believe that Homosexuality is a sin exactly?

"Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable." - Leviticus 18:22


I ask this as if you think that;
"-having been written thousands of years ago--was written in a particular historical context that may or may not be relevant today".
I wonder how you fit that around other verses from Leviticus 18 such as;

-"Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her" Verse 15
-"Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion" Verse 23
-"Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord" Verse 21

Because they are all in the same chapter as the bible. I'm not sure on your thinkings towards verses such as these and if they do apply today or don't. How do you differentiate the "right" and "wrong" ones when they are being recorded at the same time to the same people?

--------------------------------
For the record, I have no hard feelings toward people who are homosexual or bisexual. I would never judge anyone or look down on them for it. I am a sinner and I sin every day, just as they do. I do believe that they, such as yourself, have a role in the church;

"For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it." - James 2:10


All sin is equal in Gods eyes, he does not categorize sin. Being a homosexual is no worse that watching porn or taking the Lords name in vain. There are people in the church that look at porn, people that lie, people that steal, people that do drugs, just as there are people in the church that are gay, lesbian or bisexual.

Unlike you however I do not believe that

"The Bible was written thousands of years ago and is also written as an Inspired word of God, not to be considered AS God's Word and Final Say"

I believe the bible is a living book, I believe that every single word is as relevant today as it was the minute it was written down. I've seen it come into play so many times, I've drawn closer to God from the single verse "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".
So I have to disagree with you there, I do take everything in the bible as it is. That's why I see homosexuality as a sin.

I do believe that Will has a good point, but he has worded what he said quite bluntly.

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#104 Kim.

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:45 PM

Kim, why do you not believe that Homosexuality is a sin exactly?

--------------------------------
All sin is equal in Gods eyes, he does not categorize sin. Being a homosexual is no worse that watching porn or taking the Lords name in vain.
"The Bible was written thousands of years ago and is also written as an Inspired word of God, not to be considered AS God's Word and Final Say"

I believe the bible is a living book, I believe that every single word is as relevant today as it was the minute it was written down. I've seen it come into play so many times, I've drawn closer to God from the single verse "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".
So I have to disagree with you there, I do take everything in the bible as it is. That's why I see homosexuality as a sin.

I do believe that Will has a good point, but he has worded what he said quite bluntly.


I briefly read over your last post, Joe, so apologies if I don't answer all of your questions.

I do not believe homosexuality is a sin in the connotation that humans apply to it. There exists, on some level or another, an intrinsic need in humans to prioritize sections of people, to make sense of the world through logical, rational, and categorical reasoning. We can say homosexuality is a sin and equatable to all others listed and stated in the Bible. That's fine, but contextually speaking that places such activities as theft and murder, etc., on the same level. Contextually, it implies to some (whether it does or not to me) that they all mean the same things.

Messages written in Paul's letters, or epistles, such as in Romans and Corinthians, Thessalonians, etc., have particular audiences and people of address and I think it's imperative to keep that in mind while one reads. Historically, in order to address and introduce the topic of a monotheistic God, a God Who Is One and All (Karen Armstrong refers to this God in "A History of God" as 'eloheim') it was necessary to suggest and stipulate that the activities involving "sexual immorality" and homosexuality should not continue. Greeks, in particular, when mythological gods were held to great value, often placed higher value on humans than any other higher force, in an effort to imitate and achieve divine lifestyle.

I don't mean to say that the Bible is an archaic book that shouldn't be followed. It is, indeed, a living book in the sense that through reading it and the power of meditation and/or prayer we can gain greater wisdom and knowledge on what we struggle with. I do think, however, that current systems and structures today are complicated and complex enough to navigate, and I feel that we should bring not only a biblical view and perspective to the Bible, but an interdisciplinary one as well.

I do not focus on all the sins I commit every single day of my life. That is not the particular brand of Christianity I follow, just as much as I don't think I can be evangelical in body movement either. What I do focus on is entertaining how God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus connect with me and how to strengthen a deeper connection, which always requires me to examine my ethics and choices and be self-aware. I have my own crosses and internal inconsistencies which I bear and which refine me. When I read the Bible, I keep in mind the fact that each Book was written by a human, and I wonder how of that can even be considered God's Final Word on life as we know it and as it evolves. That is why I say the Bible often represents the Inspired Spoken Word of God. Neither of us can be completely sure that what has been written in Leviticus, Romans, Corinthians, Thessalonians was spoken directly BY God. And I know this sounds all radical, and blasphemic, but a God who looks down on the sin of homosexuality is not the God Who I have personally experienced in my life.

My God is not confined to a Biblical text. My God is not confined strictly to the earth. Neither is God confined internally.

No, I cannot ignore what is written in the Bible, and I don't. I often struggle with it. I often ask guidance from God on it and bring it to light in my group meetings at church. I seek counsel from my pastors. What I have to consider is everything about the text, balancing contextual and historical, intents and motivations, method and style of language, diction and translation. I think that comes from my nature to examine and be open-minded and analyze.

I know there will be people who have concerns with my brand of faith and Christianity, and that is okay. But, I AM grounded by a church that represents a stable denomination in my country. I've had debates and discussions with seminary students who have interned at my church. It is not uncommon for my friends and I to walk away with more questions than what is answered. I just happened to find the right placement for me, and am at a good point in my life to evaluate and retain strong, albeit liberal convictions, supported by a guiding body of Christians who represent almost every facet of life and who come to try to make sense of their experiences of their relationship with God and share them in a setting that is probably considered an anomaly as far a churches currently go.
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#105 Will

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 02:47 PM

Kim, why do you not believe that Homosexuality is a sin exactly?



I ask this as if you think that;
"-having been written thousands of years ago--was written in a particular historical context that may or may not be relevant today".
I wonder how you fit that around other verses from Leviticus 18 such as;

-"Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her" Verse 15
-"Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion" Verse 23
-"Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the Lord" Verse 21

Because they are all in the same chapter as the bible. I'm not sure on your thinkings towards verses such as these and if they do apply today or don't. How do you differentiate the "right" and "wrong" ones when they are being recorded at the same time to the same people?


Leviticus is a book written mainly to the jews people in that time, it's their book of laws. Anyone could say you: "Hey, that doesn't apply to us, in this time". Having said that:

For this reason God gave them up to o vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.


Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites...


Those books were written for the first generation of christians, in the time of Paul (written by him by the way), which are certainly applicable to our time


#106 Arie

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 04:29 PM

[font="Century Gothic"]Leviticus is a book written mainly to the jews people in that time, it's their book of laws. Anyone could say you: "Hey, that doesn't apply to us, in this time". Having


However, only christains say that. Jews hold that the bible is G-Ds word and that everything in it must be observed still today. We never say,"this doesn't apply to us today". That's not something we do. We instead understand how the laws do still apply today.

---------------
I would like to bring in an interesting point about this. G-D is all knowing, therefore to say that today his words do not apply is kind of silly. Are you suggesting that G-D didn't know of the future when he created these laws? Because that is completely limiting his power. Of course he knew! He knew exactly where the world would be headed. So how could these laws not be applicable today?

I don't judge anyone, of course. But that doesn't mean I am necessarily okay with homosexuality. It is something I struggle to understand. However, only G-D has the right to judge or decide what is or isn't sin. Not humans. I will leave it to G-D.

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#107 Revan

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:52 PM

I'm going to speak to us Christians here.

Christ is the foundation of the Christian faith. Therefore, let us look to Him before we look to anyone else for a sure answer. Anything which contradicts Christ's word, even if it's in the Bible, is to be cast out.

Now, Christ spoke did not speak lightly on the issues of sexuality. He called many people out of sinful, harmful sexual relationships, including but not limited to prostitution and adultery. He did not condemn them for their actions, but merely offered forgiveness and love. Now, if homosexuality is a sin, then why did Christ not call anyone out of such a relationship? Nowhere in the Gospel accounts, canonical or noncanonical, is Christ recorded as doing that.

1 Corinthians 6:9 is translated incorrectly in the context it was used above. Let's use the traditional KJV and look at the specific words used. I must stress that this is 17th century English, NOT modern English, and thus the words should NOT be taken in modern context or definition. I choose to use the KJV because it's very easily annotated with Strong's Concordance.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind


Let's examine a few key words here:

Unrighteous (Strong's #94)
1) descriptive of one who violates or has violated justice
1a) unjust
1b) unrighteous, sinful
1c) of one who deals fraudulently with others, deceitful

Fornicators (Strong's #4205)
1) a man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire
2) a male prostitute
3) a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator

Idolaters (Strong's #1496)
1) a worshipper of false gods, a idolater
1a) used of any one even Christian, participant in any way in the
worship of the heathen, esp. one who attends their sacrificial
feasts and eats of the remains of offered victims
2) a covetous man as a worshipper of Mammon

Adulterers (Strong's #3432)
1) an adulterer
2) metaph. one who is faithless toward God, ungodly

Effeminate (Strong's #3120)
1) soft, soft to the touch
2) metaph. in a bad sense
2a) effeminate
2a1) of a catamite
2a2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
2a3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
2a4) of a male prostitute

As we can see, the ONLY reference to homosexuality in every single definition of these words is definition 2a2 of Strong's 3120. In this sense, this refers to pederasty, a common 1st century Greek practice where a young boy is reserved by a man for sexual relations. It's a very specific instance of use. It's widely known that such pederastic relationships were not based on love, but lust.

Thus, Paul is not actually condemning a homosexual, at all. He's speaking against sexual immorality; that is, the lack of love in sexual relationships. Neither Jesus Christ nor any of the Apostles condemned homosexuality; modern translations of the Bible are twisted to present them as doing so, where in the original languages, they have done no such thing. Let's study the original scripting of it to divine the true meaning, not a church's interpretation.

Further, it's not up to us to say who is condemned and who is not; Christ teaches us, through Jesus and in our selves, to love all people and regard them with respect and be a servant to them regardless of who they are. And if that is not enough, it remains that Jesus never, not even once, called someone out of it. There's even argument that Jesus encountered it, and did not condemn it (the Roman centurion's "beloved servant"; a first century Greek reader would know the implications of the wording).

Finally, if you're going to quote the Law, the former covenant, with all of it's 613 commandments, it follows that YOU YOURSELF must be made subject to the Law in it's entirety, lest you be found as a hypocrite. It is well known that you will not keep it; only Jesus has been able to keep the entire Law successfully. So instead of pushing the old covenant on someone else without following it yourself, let's make the New Covenant available to everyone, where the only commandment is: "Love your brother as I loved you".

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#108 Monkey Cartwheels

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 12:33 PM

However, only christains say that. Jews hold that the bible is G-Ds word and that everything in it must be observed still today. We never say,"this doesn't apply to us today". That's not something we do. We instead understand how the laws do still apply today.

---------------
I would like to bring in an interesting point about this. G-D is all knowing, therefore to say that today his words do not apply is kind of silly. Are you suggesting that G-D didn't know of the future when he created these laws? Because that is completely limiting his power. Of course he knew! He knew exactly where the world would be headed. So how could these laws not be applicable today?

I don't judge anyone, of course. But that doesn't mean I am necessarily okay with homosexuality. It is something I struggle to understand. However, only G-D has the right to judge or decide what is or isn't sin. Not humans. I will leave it to G-D.


This post is spot on! Pat yourself on the back Arie!
I agree with this.

----------------------------
I dunno, I still don't fully get it, never will and I don't think the world will ever come to a conclusion on it. But God is the judge, He knows and that's all that matters in the end right?
I will never think that it is something you are born with, but I will also never believe that it is an unforgivable thing.
After thought and stuff I've heard, to me it is like any other sin, could be adultery, blasphemy or what ever. God is never going to abandon us, He said so Himself.
Because even though you may feel attracted toward the same sex, its still your choice how far you take it, its your choice to date them, kiss them or further. To me, that is what people will be judged on, but that is just like a man and woman relationship too. However the stage where the sin starts would be more sooner for homosexuals.
The thing that gets me with that, but I guess still fits in, is that that person is then choosing to sin on purpose. But if a person believed what I've said then they would be hesitant to do so........ As I said, I dunno.


This is what I can come up with, this is what I can get my head around, but that doesn't really mean a hell of a lot. Its not my place to judge, its not my place to dictate or be the law maker. Its between that person and God, I think if they bring the issue to God then He will give the answer in a way you can understand.

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#109 Arie

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:22 PM

This post is spot on! Pat yourself on the back Arie!
I agree with this.

----------------------------
I dunno, I still don't fully get it, never will and I don't think the world will ever come to a conclusion on it. But God is the judge, He knows and that's all that matters in the end right?
I will never think that it is something you are born with, but I will also never believe that it is an unforgivable thing.
After thought and stuff I've heard, to me it is like any other sin, could be adultery, blasphemy or what ever. God is never going to abandon us, He said so Himself.
Because even though you may feel attracted toward the same sex, its still your choice how far you take it, its your choice to date them, kiss them or further. To me, that is what people will be judged on, but that is just like a man and woman relationship too. However the stage where the sin starts would be more sooner for homosexuals.
The thing that gets me with that, but I guess still fits in, is that that person is then choosing to sin on purpose. But if a person believed what I've said then they would be hesitant to do so........ As I said, I dunno.


This is what I can come up with, this is what I can get my head around, but that doesn't really mean a hell of a lot. Its not my place to judge, its not my place to dictate or be the law maker. Its between that person and God, I think if they bring the issue to God then He will give the answer in a way you can understand.


Aw thanks! I will do that right now!
*pats self on back*

I agree with what you wrote as well. In the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what any of us say or think. Only G-D's opinion matters. This topic is always going to be hard to come to terms with. But, I think it is comforting in a way to say,"you know what, I am clearly not supposed to be able to figure this all out. That is G-D's job". At least, it bring me comfort. I am only a human, what do I know? lol

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#110 Kim.

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 02:15 AM

I agree with what you wrote as well. In the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what any of us say or think. Only G-D's opinion matters. This topic is always going to be hard to come to terms with. But, I think it is comforting in a way to say,"you know what, I am clearly not supposed to be able to figure this all out. That is G-D's job". At least, it bring me comfort. I am only a human, what do I know? lol


I agree with you, Arie. It gets to be exhaustive. The good thing that comes out of it--or should come out of it--is entertaining the idea that, perhaps, our level of critical thinking can be further enlarged.

However--and this is NOT for purposes of debate--I just don't understand why we cannot deeply appreciate each other's experiences--whether that be someone's achievements, moments of wisdom and self-awareness, or level of love they feel for someone else...regardless of that person happening to be of the same gender--without automatically, and innately, connecting it to religious beliefs as a way to justify whether something or someone is right or wrong, moral or immoral, gift or sin, gain or loss, worthy or worthless, and superior or inferior to us in the scope of God, and in relation to God, and thereby in comparison to ourselves.

We all seem to disagree straight down to written (or "spoken") word and doctrine, instead of seeing what is and what positive things seeing someone in great happiness brings to them, and entertaining the question of how that then can positively influence and change us.

To be honest, that's sad. And for clarification: the situation and actions are sad, not the people themselves. I guess that's why the human race was born to feel hope, huh?
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#111 Arie

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 03:24 AM

I agree with you, Arie. It gets to be exhaustive. The good thing that comes out of it--or should come out of it--is entertaining the idea that, perhaps, our level of critical thinking can be further enlarged.

However--and this is NOT for purposes of debate--I just don't understand why we cannot deeply appreciate each other's experiences--whether that be someone's achievements, moments of wisdom and self-awareness, or level of love they feel for someone else...regardless of that person happening to be of the same gender--without automatically, and innately, connecting it to religious beliefs as a way to justify whether something or someone is right or wrong, moral or immoral, gift or sin, gain or loss, worthy or worthless, and superior or inferior to us in the scope of God, and in relation to God, and thereby in comparison to ourselves.

We all seem to disagree straight down to written (or "spoken") word and doctrine, instead of seeing what is and what positive things seeing someone in great happiness brings to them, and entertaining the question of how that then can positively influence and change us.

To be honest, that's sad. And for clarification: the situation and actions are sad, not the people themselves. I guess that's why the human race was born to feel hope, huh?


You raise an interesting point. I guess the bottom line for us, I cant speak for anyone else, is gonna be the difference of religions. Judaism is very much based on the letter of the law. We believe in understanding it, not pushin it away. We also believe that G-Ds word is final. I can sit here and argue on about opinions, but that doesn't do any good. Instead I rather focus my attention on understand. Which i don't think is "sad" at all. Anyone can disagree with a law or fight about it. Not everyone can come to a great understanding of it. I strive to understand, not to fight it. I strive to live by the laws given to me by G-D in the best way that I can't. Not just argue it. That is the point of my opinion. Which has everything to do with the discussion on hand. My opinion is that we need to understand G-Ds word. Not just say,"oh it's an old law". That is too simplistic for me.

Again , I have absolutely nothing against gay people. It is not for me to judge, it is for G-D and that is the bases of my opinion. No where does it say that I can't respect or love a gay person. I have many friends who are gay. Beyond that, I am still trying to understand. Not fight with it, but understand it. Because every single law created by G-D is important. As a religious person, I must understand them all. In order to consider myself religious, I must understand.

Edit- to address your second paragraph. For me, the reason I automatically associate these things with religion is because I am extremely religious. There is not much that I don't look at through "religious glasses". That is just who I am. It's another Jewish idea. It's how I was raised. Everything about me goes back to my religion. So that is why, for me, everything leads back. Again, I never judge anyone. That was the whole point of my last 2 posts. That it is for G-D to judge, not me. I never ever judge people on anything, and I have worked very hard in order to be that person. It has been a conscious effort on my part, to never judge.

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#112 Monkey Cartwheels

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 12:50 PM

You raise an interesting point. I guess the bottom line for us, I cant speak for anyone else, is gonna be the difference of religions. Judaism is very much based on the letter of the law. We believe in understanding it, not pushin it away. We also believe that G-Ds word is final. I can sit here and argue on about opinions, but that doesn't do any good. Instead I rather focus my attention on understand. Which i don't think is "sad" at all. Anyone can disagree with a law or fight about it. Not everyone can come to a great understanding of it. I strive to understand, not to fight it. I strive to live by the laws given to me by G-D in the best way that I can't. Not just argue it. That is the point of my opinion. Which has everything to do with the discussion on hand. My opinion is that we need to understand G-Ds word. Not just say,"oh it's an old law". That is too simplistic for me.

Again , I have absolutely nothing against gay people. It is not for me to judge, it is for G-D and that is the bases of my opinion. No where does it say that I can't respect or love a gay person. I have many friends who are gay. Beyond that, I am still trying to understand. Not fight with it, but understand it. Because every single law created by G-D is important. As a religious person, I must understand them all. In order to consider myself religious, I must understand.

Edit- to address your second paragraph. For me, the reason I automatically associate these things with religion is because I am extremely religious. There is not much that I don't look at through "religious glasses". That is just who I am. It's another Jewish idea. It's how I was raised. Everything about me goes back to my religion. So that is why, for me, everything leads back. Again, I never judge anyone. That was the whole point of my last 2 posts. That it is for G-D to judge, not me. I never ever judge people on anything, and I have worked very hard in order to be that person. It has been a conscious effort on my part, to never judge.

You and I think much a like Arie...

Your first paragraph is exactly my thoughts. The one thing I would add (You wouldn't because you're Jewish) is that, this is why Jesus spoke so much of what God said. All of Jesus' teaching comes from the Old Testament. I view every book, from Songs of Solomon to the four gospels to be just as relevant as each other.

I also like what you said in the second part (See, we have similar thoughts).
Through out last year I grew a massive amount in my faith and now I view everything with my Religo-vision turned on.
And its actually improved my views. Before hand I just thought gays were bad and that was that. But now though discussions and what not my views have changed a lot more to a more understanding and acceptance of homosexuality.


















But I still don't know the answer...

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#113 Arie

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Posted 07 May 2012 - 01:00 PM

You and I think much a like Arie...

Your first paragraph is exactly my thoughts. The one thing I would add (You wouldn't because you're Jewish) is that, this is why Jesus spoke so much of what God said. All of Jesus' teaching comes from the Old Testament. I view every book, from Songs of Solomon to the four gospels to be just as relevant as each other.

I also like what you said in the second part (See, we have similar thoughts).
Through out last year I grew a massive amount in my faith and now I view everything with my Religo-vision turned on.
And its actually improved my views. Before hand I just thought gays were bad and that was that. But now though discussions and what not my views have changed a lot more to a more understanding and acceptance of homosexuality.

But I still don't know the answer...


First off,*hi five* because you are awesome! Lol. And thanks!

Thank you for adding in the bit about Jesus though because I do enjoy learning and I like to know how it works for everyone! That's interesting! I have heard from some christains that they don't really care for the old Testement and I never understood that!

That's amazing june! Go you! I agree, it has helped me a lot over the years as well!

I don't know that any ofuswillever know "the answer", and I don't think we are suppossed to.

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#114 Midnight Toker

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Posted 21 June 2012 - 05:16 PM

Thinking that homosexuality is a sin is hate. My God doesn't condone hatred in any form. There are many things in the Bible that are written that we do not do. People look at what they want and take what they want from the Bible. I think God would rather have a kind Atheist over a Christian filled with hate. Just my 2 cents once again on the matter.

I'm going to speak to us Christians here.

Christ is the foundation of the Christian faith. Therefore, let us look to Him before we look to anyone else for a sure answer. Anything which contradicts Christ's word, even if it's in the Bible, is to be cast out.

Now, Christ spoke did not speak lightly on the issues of sexuality. He called many people out of sinful, harmful sexual relationships, including but not limited to prostitution and adultery. He did not condemn them for their actions, but merely offered forgiveness and love. Now, if homosexuality is a sin, then why did Christ not call anyone out of such a relationship? Nowhere in the Gospel accounts, canonical or noncanonical, is Christ recorded as doing that.

1 Corinthians 6:9 is translated incorrectly in the context it was used above. Let's use the traditional KJV and look at the specific words used. I must stress that this is 17th century English, NOT modern English, and thus the words should NOT be taken in modern context or definition. I choose to use the KJV because it's very easily annotated with Strong's Concordance.



Let's examine a few key words here:

Unrighteous (Strong's #94)
1) descriptive of one who violates or has violated justice
1a) unjust
1b) unrighteous, sinful
1c) of one who deals fraudulently with others, deceitful

Fornicators (Strong's #4205)
1) a man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire
2) a male prostitute
3) a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator

Idolaters (Strong's #1496)
1) a worshipper of false gods, a idolater
1a) used of any one even Christian, participant in any way in the
worship of the heathen, esp. one who attends their sacrificial
feasts and eats of the remains of offered victims
2) a covetous man as a worshipper of Mammon

Adulterers (Strong's #3432)
1) an adulterer
2) metaph. one who is faithless toward God, ungodly

Effeminate (Strong's #3120)
1) soft, soft to the touch
2) metaph. in a bad sense
2a) effeminate
2a1) of a catamite
2a2) of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man
2a3) of a male who submits his body to unnatural lewdness
2a4) of a male prostitute

As we can see, the ONLY reference to homosexuality in every single definition of these words is definition 2a2 of Strong's 3120. In this sense, this refers to pederasty, a common 1st century Greek practice where a young boy is reserved by a man for sexual relations. It's a very specific instance of use. It's widely known that such pederastic relationships were not based on love, but lust.

Thus, Paul is not actually condemning a homosexual, at all. He's speaking against sexual immorality; that is, the lack of love in sexual relationships. Neither Jesus Christ nor any of the Apostles condemned homosexuality; modern translations of the Bible are twisted to present them as doing so, where in the original languages, they have done no such thing. Let's study the original scripting of it to divine the true meaning, not a church's interpretation.

Further, it's not up to us to say who is condemned and who is not; Christ teaches us, through Jesus and in our selves, to love all people and regard them with respect and be a servant to them regardless of who they are. And if that is not enough, it remains that Jesus never, not even once, called someone out of it. There's even argument that Jesus encountered it, and did not condemn it (the Roman centurion's "beloved servant"; a first century Greek reader would know the implications of the wording).

Finally, if you're going to quote the Law, the former covenant, with all of it's 613 commandments, it follows that YOU YOURSELF must be made subject to the Law in it's entirety, lest you be found as a hypocrite. It is well known that you will not keep it; only Jesus has been able to keep the entire Law successfully. So instead of pushing the old covenant on someone else without following it yourself, let's make the New Covenant available to everyone, where the only commandment is: "Love your brother as I loved you".

~Revan

Well said! Thank you for saying this. People who study religion usually come up with this. I'm not saying it's 100% correct because until we make a time machine, we'll never know. Or you know, discover God or something.

As long as religion isn't used to govern my laws, I don't care what anyone wants to believe. Just don't use your hate to put someone down. That's all I care about.

Edited by wunderbar, 21 June 2012 - 05:21 PM.

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#115 Monkey Cartwheels

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:41 PM

Christians that believe homosexuality is a sin don't hate them.
End of story, I know untold amounts of Christians that are anti-homosexualty but will still love a gay.

Edited by wheneverythingfalls, 25 June 2012 - 12:42 PM.

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#116 ling

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 06:30 PM

This topic is quite old, but I wanted to make a quick comment.

I'm gay. I was born gay. Nobody would choose to be hated by large groups of people, especially me. As my friends put it "Ling loves everyone." I'm a very giving person and a loyal friend and I like almost everyone I encounter. I always see the good in them. So why do I deserve to be hated for being attracted to, and loving, someone of the same sex? It makes me sad that I am so accepting of peoples' lifestyles and cultures and I always always ALWAYS want to learn more and talk to people... yet my passport came with a list of countries I can't set foot in or I could be murdered. Yet, if people from these same countries wished to come to Canada and make a life here, I would support them. I just want equality.

Much of my family is Christian (I am generally a strong agnostic, but I admit to being more atheist some days), and they accept me, and love me, and many of them changed their mind on homosexuality being a sin because they KNOW me and they know I'm not a bad person.

Anyway, as I said, I was born gay. People are born gay. Sexuality is an animal characteristic, it doesn't have much to do with thoughts, it's instinct. People are NOT born religious. You learn to become religious through your family and fellowship with other people of your religion. THEY teach you to disapprove of someone without knowing anything about the person. They can also teach you to be accepting and love everyone. It is YOUR CHOICE whether you practice a religion (I chose to no longer be a Christian), but your sexuality is not (unless some of you want to go sleep with someone of the same gender as you and come back with a definitive answer, you can just take my word for this, because YES, I tried. Once again, nobody chooses to be hated for being different, so I tried to be what people wanted me to be).

#117 Midnight Toker

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:41 PM

Quick edit: Hey Ling. I for sure remember you now. I'm a transsexual pansexual dude. My grandmother used to throw the Bible at me telling me I was going to hell. Nowadays, she supports me and even met one of the boys I liked. She no longer thinks it's a sin and is even trying to get marriage for gays. I believe also believe that people are taught religion and people are taught certain things that may not be true. They take these teachings to heart and then they spread it like wildfire.

If someone thinks homosexuality is a sin, fine that is your CHOICE but do not put that choice on me and tell me whom I can and cannot marry. So yeah, I totally understand you Ling. Well said.

Christians that believe homosexuality is a sin don't hate them.
End of story, I know untold amounts of Christians that are anti-homosexualty but will still love a gay.

Perhaps you may not but do not generalize saying that they do not hate. If you deny someone their rights, human rights, because you believe it is a sin. This is a form of a hatred and the God I believe in does not look on this kindly.

Edited by wunderbar, 28 June 2012 - 09:45 PM.

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#118 Monkey Cartwheels

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:22 AM

Perhaps you may not but do not generalize saying that they do not hate. If you deny someone their rights, human rights, because you believe it is a sin. This is a form of a hatred and the God I believe in does not look on this kindly.

Then how about you don't generalize Christians mate?
All you do is put all Christians into the same pot and say that our God teaches hate, and its pretty damn annoying.
I will place money on it that 99% the real hate you see toward gays, bi's and lesbians come from people that aren't Christians or are only Christians on facebook. Sure there are Christian extremists that don't like Gays. Just as there are Atheist extremists that hate Christians, just as there are extremist that have martyred over 250 million Christians. Just as there are any extremists in any form of religion, cult, belief, lifestyle. Just as I bet there are extremist Wicca Pagans.

In perfect honesty I think your only goal here goes a lot deeper than your opinion on Homosexuality.
I think that your only goal here is to attack Christians and put down God. I think that is your only goal here.
If not, prove me wrong....

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#119 Midnight Toker

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 08:07 PM

Then how about you don't generalize Christians mate?
All you do is put all Christians into the same pot and say that our God teaches hate, and its pretty damn annoying.
I will place money on it that 99% the real hate you see toward gays, bi's and lesbians come from people that aren't Christians or are only Christians on facebook. Sure there are Christian extremists that don't like Gays. Just as there are Atheist extremists that hate Christians, just as there are extremist that have martyred over 250 million Christians. Just as there are any extremists in any form of religion, cult, belief, lifestyle. Just as I bet there are extremist Wicca Pagans.

In perfect honesty I think your only goal here goes a lot deeper than your opinion on Homosexuality.
I think that your only goal here is to attack Christians and put down God. I think that is your only goal here.
If not, prove me wrong....

I wrote what I wrote quite a bit ago and since then I've grown a bit. However, my goal was NOT to put down God or Christianity. I believe we all have the same God but we view Him differently or as Karen put it "he is comprised of all religions". I do not hate anyone. I try my best to love and understand as much as I can. I do get frustrated at the judgement. We are not God therefore we should not judge or condemn anyone based on sex, race, creed, sexuality, gender and/or nationality.

What I believe is God loves everyone. I used to be a Christian, believe it or not. When I was, I followed Christ's teachings and took what I could from it as a lesson. I find that the Bible is figurative not literal. Jesus did not care if you were a hooker or a rich man, he gave his love to everyone. He did not judge.

There are many things in the Bible that are out-of-date. Part of the Bible was man's way of explaining his surroundings. It was his explanation to the world and the people around him. I believe that God gave certain people the ability to hear Him and those people were the ones who wrote their parts to the book.

Also, I'd like to state that while that famous quote "man shall not lay with man" and say that it was mistranslated. We have proof of this. A lot of what is in the Bible was mistranslated.

This is a very good article that was written by a Priest. I think a lot of people should listen:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/15/my-take-what-the-bible-really-says-about-homosexuality/

That, in fact, was the case among the Sodomites (Genesis 19), whose experience is frequently cited by modern anti-gay critics. The Sodomites wanted to rape the visitors whom Lot, the one just man in the city, welcomed in hospitality for the night.

The Bible itself is lucid on the sin of Sodom: pride, lack of concern for the poor and needy (Ezekiel 16:48-49); hatred of strangers and cruelty to guests (Wisdom 19:13); arrogance (Sirach/Ecclesiaticus 16:8); evildoing, injustice, oppression of the widow and orphan (Isaiah 1:17); adultery (in those days, the use of another man’s property), and lying (Jeremiah 23:12).

But nowhere are same-sex acts named as the sin of Sodom. That intended gang rape only expressed the greater sin, condemned in the Bible from cover to cover: hatred, injustice, cruelty, lack of concern for others. Hence, Jesus says “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Matthew 19:19; Mark 12:31); and “By this will they know you are my disciples” (John 13:35).

How inverted these values have become! In the name of Jesus, evangelicals and Catholic bishops make sex the Christian litmus test and are willing to sacrifice the social safety net in return.


In a nut shell: Abuse in any form is wrong and does not belong in the gates of Heaven. Good will and humanity is what is needed.

The Bible is against abuse not against homosexuality. A lot of the real context of the Bible was lost, sadly. Now, because of this, we pay for it.

Edited by Midnight Toker, 02 November 2012 - 08:13 PM.

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