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[quote name='Dreamzy' timestamp='1311260557' post='133903']
Dear I'm just Telling you that from a Muslim point of view and I'm one of the people who against homosexuality cuz first they are against nature as I said before and there is a really quranic verse about that if u read Quran you will know it ( ma English not perfect to translate that quranic verse I'm Srry) And really if u ask a real religious Muslim not gay about homosexuality in Islam you will find that it's a sin![/quote]

Then how do [i]you[/i] explain these two verses I quoted:

[quote]It talks about whom a woman is to cover her self in front of, and who she can expose her self to. The latter group includes her husband, father and even male servants who are not attracted to women. Doesn't that make that servant a gay man? (24:31)[/quote]

[quote][i]"And one of His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find rest in them, and He put between you love and compassion; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect." (30:21)[/i]

The last verse does not necessarily say that the every one's mate is of the opposite sex. :unsure: [/quote]

(Sorry if I get off topic) By the way, the Qu'ran like the Bible, has some very outdated verses or information that contradict science.

1) According to Holy Quran mountains prevent earthquake or the shaking of the earth. In Sura Al Al-Anbiyaa (Chapter 21 verse# 31) it says [i]"And We have placed on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them"[/i]

If Mountains are there to stop the earth from shaking, then why do we see so many earthquakes in mountainous regions?. For example, Japan is a mountainous zone but it has 1,500 earthquakes every year. 'Shaking of the earth' and earth quakes mean the same thing right? Mountains are created because of the movement of tectonic plates. They do not stablize the earth or prevent shaking of the earth.

2) The Quran In Sura Al Mulk (Chapter 67) Ayaat # 5 it says [i]"And We have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps,
and we have made such (Lamps as) missiles to drive away Satans, ... "[/i]

So the stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? In order to not let them eavesdrop on the heavenly council? The first ayaat says stars are lamps that is fine but lamps (stars) are not thrown at devils.

3) Why does the Quran say Allah prevents the sky from falling into the earth? The Holy Quran in Sura Al Hajj (chapter 22 verse # 65) says [i]Pickthall: He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.[/i]

As me know the sky is vast. So how can it fall into the earth? This sounds crazy.

4) According to the Quran honey comes from the body of the bee.In Sura an Nahl An Nahl (chapter 16 verse # 69) says [i]YUSUFALI: Then to eat of all the produce (of the earth), and find with skill the spacious paths of its Lord: there issues from within their bodies a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing for men.[/i]

A bee makes honey from the collected then chewed up pollen from plants. The bee never actually swallows and or digests the pollen. Honey does not come from the bodyof the bee. The bees chew their nectar through their mouth. After that nectar is dried out in the honeycomb and honey is formed. The verse in Quran is scientifically incorrect.

My point is...IF there was a verse in the Qu'ran that condemns homosexuality, what are the chances that it is wrong? When clearly 1,500 species of animals exhibit homosexual behavior. As much as other people like to deny it, we are still animals just more intelligent.

Take into consideration that the Qu'ran was written approximate 1,350 years ago...that's a heck of a long time for radicals to tamper with holy scripture. The same applies to the Bible.

Anyway, let's just agree to disagree. =/ Edited by Bagel of Death
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[quote name='Bagel of Death' timestamp='1311304143' post='134325']
The same applies to the Bible.[/quote]
[font="Century Gothic"]I would like you to show me at least one Biblical passage that contradicts science, please.[/font]
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[quote name='Will' timestamp='1311304365' post='134326']
[font="Century Gothic"]I would like you to show me at least one Biblical passage that contradicts science, please.[/font]
[/quote]

Why not a few? :P

[i](Psalm 93:1:) The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.
(Psalm 96:10:) Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.
(1 Chronicles 16:30:) Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.
(Psalm 104:5:) He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
(Ecclesiastes 1:5:) The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises...[/i]

We now know from science that the Sun is at the center of our Solar System, and the Earth moves around the Sun, this has been proven by scientific observations, and even the Vatican concurs, but this scientific truth contradicts a few Bible verses if it is read literally.

Rabbits do not chew their cud. (LEV 11:6) [i]And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.[/i]

The bat is not a bird. [i](LEV 11:13) And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
(LEV 11:14) And the vulture, and the kite after his kind;
(LEV 11:15) Every raven after his kind;
(LEV 11:16) And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
(LEV 11:17) And the little owl, and the cormorant, and the great owl,
(LEV 11:18) And the swan, and the pelican, and the gier eagle,
(LEV 11:19) And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

(DEU 14:11) Of all clean birds ye shall eat.
(DEU 14:12) But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
(DEU 14:13) And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind,
(DEU 14:14) And every raven after his kind,
(DEU 14:15) And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind,
(DEU 14:16) The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan,
(DEU 14:17) And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant,
(DEU 14:18) And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.[/i]

Snails do not melt. [i](PSA 58:8) As a snail which melteth, let every one of them pass away: like the untimely birth of a woman, that they may not see the sun.[/i]

A circle is 2D, a sphere is 3D. Even the Greeks knew the earth was round. [i](ISA 40:22) It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: (MAT 4:8) Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;[/i]

Pi is not equal to 3: [i]"And he [Hiram] made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one rim to the other it was round all about, and...a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about....And it was an hand breadth thick...." — First Kings, chapter 7, verses 23 and 26[/i]

I'll try and go back to find some more. By the way, here's a website you might want to check out. ---> [url="http://www.bigissueground.com/atheistground/ash-biblecontradictions.shtml"]Clicky![/url]

Though the websites name sounds a bit biased, you'll be interested how he quotes a lot of contradictions of the Bible. Not just from a scientific ground, but moral as well. Edited by Bagel of Death
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[quote]We now know from science that the Sun is at the center of our Solar System, and the Earth moves around the Sun, this has been proven by scientific observations, and even the Vatican concurs, but this scientific truth contradicts a few Bible verses if it is read literally.[/quote]
[font="Century Gothic"]Before Galileo Galilei, the scientific community claimed that the sun moves around the Earth; and those passages were written a long way before Galilei; but anyways:[/font]

[quote][i](Psalm 93:1:) The LORD reigns, he is robed in majesty; the LORD is robed in majesty and is armed with strength. The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.
(Psalm 96:10:) Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns." The world is firmly established, it cannot be moved; he will judge the peoples with equity.
(1 Chronicles 16:30:) Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.
(Psalm 104:5:) He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.[/i][/quote]
[font="Century Gothic"]It's right, the world cannot be moved. Can you move it from its actual position? Plus, Psalm and Ecclesiastes are poetry books.[/font]

[quote]Rabbits do not chew their cud. (LEV 11:6) And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.[/quote]
[quote]The bat is not a bird. (LEV 11:13) And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray...[/quote]
[font="Century Gothic"]That's not a scientific mistake. For example, in those time, bat were classified as bird because they can fly; that's how people classify animals at the time.[/font]

[quote]Though the websites name sounds a bit biased, you'll be interested how he quotes a lot of contradictions of the Bible. Not just from a scientific ground, but moral as well. [/quote]
[font="Century Gothic"]That webpages was written regardless the time, the writer, nor the circumstances in how the Bible was elaborated. For example, this part:[/font]

[quote][b]War or Peace?[/b]
EXODUS 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROMANS 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.[/quote]
[font="Century Gothic"]Exodus and Romans weren't written in the same time and in the same circumstances: Exodus in, as we call it, the Time of the Laws, where the Jewish people were setting as the people of God. Romans in the Time of Grace, the time after Jesus dies for our sins. [/font]
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ehm! justto prove for you that homosexuality is a sin in islam i'll post for you the story of Lote peace upon him and his people,if u really read Quran you will know this story its in Quran dear and you can ask ur muslim gay friend about that ^^

[quote]Story of Lot peace be upon him
نسبه عليه السلام Percentage peace be upon him

ومما وقع في حياة إبراهيم الخليل من الأمور العظيمة قصة قوم لوط عليه السلام، وما حل بهم من النقمة العميمة. It took place in the life of Abraham the story of the great things the people of Lot peace be upon him, and what happened to them from the resentment Abrima.


وذلك أن لوطاً بن هاران بن تارح، وهو آزر, ولوط هو ابن أخي إبراهيم الخليل، فإبراهيم، وهاران وناحور إخوة كما ذكرنا فى قصة ابراهيم عليه السلام. And that the Lot Ben Haran Ben Terah, a friend, and Lot is the nephew of Abraham, Vabrahim, Nahor and Haran and brothers as we mentioned in the story of Abraham peace be upon him. ويقال: إنَّ هاران هذا هو الذي بنى حرّان. It is said that this is Haran, who built Harran. وهذا ضعيف والله تعالى أعلم. This is weak, and Allah knows best.


وكان لوط قد نزح عن محلة عمه الخليل عليهما السلام بأمره له وأذنه، فنزل بمدينة سدوم من أرض غور، زُغَر، وكان أمّ تلك المحله، ولها أرض ومعتملات وقرى، مضافة إليها ولها أهل من أفجر الناس وأكفرهم وأسوأهم طوية، وأرداهم سريرة وسيرة، يقطعون السبيل ويأتون في ناديهم المنكر، ولا يتناهون عن منكر فعلوه لبئس ما كانوا يفعلون. The Lot has been displaced from the locality of his uncle Hebron peace be upon them ordering him and his ear, went down city of Sodom from the land of Gore, Zgr, and was mother of that camp, and her land and Matmlat and villages, added to it and have the people of the blow people Okverhm and worst of innermost and Erdahm clinical and biography, cut way They come in their club and evil, not Atnahon is evil for evil they did what they were doing.


قصته مع قومه عليه السلام His story with his people, peace be upon him

و قوم لوط ابتدعوا فاحشة لم يسبقهم إليها أحد من بني آدم، وهي إتيان الذكران من العالمين، وترك ما خلق الله من النسوان لعباده الصالحين. Sodomites and invented a neighbor does not obscene one of the sons of Adam, which engage in males of the worlds, and leave God's creation of Niswan of slaves.


فدعاهم لوط إلى عبادة الله تعالى وحده لا شريك له، ونهاهم عن تعاطي هذه المحرمات، والفواحش المنكرات، والأفاعيل المستقبحات، فتمادوا على ضلالهم وطغيانهم، واستمروا على فجورهم وكفرانهم، فأحل الله بهم من البأس الذي لا يرد ما لم يكن في خلدهم وحسبانهم، وجعلهم مثله في العالمين، وعبرة يتعظ بها الألباء من العالمين. He summoned them Lot to the worship of Allah alone with no partner, and tell them to use of these taboos, and immorality, evil, and Alavail Almstqubhat, Vtmedua the misguidance and tyranny, and they continue on the immorality and Kvranhm, Vahl God to them from the bass that does not return what was not in their minds and look to, and make them like him of both worlds, and lessons from the lesson Alalba of the Worlds.


ولهذا ذكر الله تعالى قصتهم في غير ما موضع في كتابه المبين، فقال تعالى في سورة الأعراف : {وَلُوطاً إِذْ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِ أَتَأْتُونَ الْفَاحِشَةَ مَا سَبَقَكُمْ بِهَا مِنْ أَحَدٍ مِنْ الْعَالَمِينَ، إِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ الرِّجَالَ شَهْوَةً مِنْ دُونِ النِّسَاءِ بَلْ أَنْتُمْ قَوْمٌ مُسْرِفُونَ، وَمَا كَانَ جَوَابَ قَوْمِهِ إِلا أَنْ قَالُوا أَخْرِجُوهُمْ مِنْ قَرْيَتِكُمْ إِنَّهُمْ أُنَاسٌ يَتَطَهَّرُونَ، فَأَنجَيْنَاهُ وَأَهْلَهُ إِلا امْرَأَتَهُ كَانَتْ مِنْ الْغَابِرِينَ، وَأَمْطَرْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ مَطَراً فَانظُرْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُجْرِمِينَ}. That is why Allaah mentioned their story, not for what the subject in his book out, God said in Surat Al-norms: {And Lot said to his people, ye commit outrageous what those who preceded you out of one of the worlds, You are the lusts on men instead of women you are a people transgressing beyond bounds, and the answer of his people But they said they took them out of your village people purified, We saved him and his family, except his wife; and the rain rained down on them see what was the end of criminals}.


و سنورد الآن ما كان من أمرهم وما أحل الله بهم مجموعاً من الآيات والآثار وبالله المستعان. And now we will cite what was ordered and what Allah has permitted them a total of verses and God and the effects of strength.

وذلك أن لوطاً عليه السلام لما دعاهم إلى عبادة الله وحده لا شريك له، ونهاهم عن تعاطي ما ذكر الله عنهم من الفواحش، لم يستجيبوا له ولم يؤمنوا به، حتى ولا رجل واحد منهم، ولم يتركوا ما عنه نهوا، بل استمروا على حالهم، ولم يرتدعوا عن غيهم وضلالهم، وهمّوا بإخراج رسولهم من بين ظهرانيهم. And that Lot peace be upon him as invited them to worship Allah alone with no partner, and tell them to use of the remembrance of Allah about them from the immoral, did not respond did not believe in him, not even a man and one of them, leaving little about forbidden, but they continue as they are, not deterred from their transgression and misguidance, and remove the messenger from the pagans in their midst.

{واستضعفوه وسخروا منه} وما كان حاصل جوابهم عن خطابهم إذ كانوا لا يعقلون إلا أن قالوا: {And Astdavoh and mocked him}, and their answer was the product of all their rhetoric as they do not understand but that they said:

{أَخْرِجُوا آلَ لُوطٍ مِنْ قَرْيَتِكُمْ إِنَّهُمْ أُنَاسٌ يَتَطَهَّرُونَ} {Dragged the family of Lot from your village people they are purified!
فجعلوا غاية المدح ذماً يقتضي الإخراج، وما حملهم على مقالتهم هذه إلا العناد واللجاج. So they too praise invective required output, and get them to their article but this stubbornness and Algaj.

فطهره الله وأهله إلا امرأته، وأخرجهم منها أحسن إخراج، وتركهم في محلتهم خالدين، لكن بعد ما صيّرها عليهم بحرة منتنة، ذات أمواج، لكنها عليهم في الحقيقة نار تأجج، وحرّ يتوهج، وماؤها ملح أجاج. Vtehrh God and his family, except his wife, and brought them out, including best director, and left them in Mahlthm immortal, but after what they Serha Bahra skunk, with waves, but they in fact the fire flared up, and free glow, and its water is salt and bitter.

وما كان هذا جوابهم إلاّ لما نهاهم عن الطامة العظمى والفاحشة الكبرى، التي لم يسبقهم إليها أحد من أهل الدنيا. And this was their answer only to tell them about the great disaster struck and the greater evil, which was not preceded by one of the people of this world. ولهذا صاروا مثلة فيها وعبرة لمن عليها. This became the examples and a lesson to those who it. وكانوا مع ذلك يقطعون الطريق، ويخونون الرفيق، ويأتون في ناديهم، وهو مجتمعهم ومحل حديثهم وسمرهم، المنكر من الأقوال والأفعال، على اختلاف أصنافه، حتى قيل: إنهم كانوا يتضارطون في مجالسهم، ولا يستحيون من مجالسهم، وربما وقع منهم الفعلة العظيمة في المحافل، ولا يستنكفون ولا يرعوون لوعظ واعظ، ولا نصيحة من عاقل، وكانوا في ذلك وغيره كالأنعام بل أضل سبيلاً، ولم يقلعوا عما كانوا عليه في الحاضر، ولا ندموا على ما سلف من الماضي، ولا راموا في المستقبل تحويلاً، فأخذهم الله أخذاً وبيلاً. They were, however, cut off the road, and betray the companion, and they come in their club, a community and place of speaking, and Samarhm, evil words and deeds, the difference Osnavh, so it was said they were Atdharton in their councils, nor ashamed of their councils, and may have signed them deed the great forums, do not shun nor Arawon to preaching and preacher, nor the advice of the wise, and they were in this and other like cattle, but astray from the Path, and did not quit what they were in the present, and regretted what advances of the past, nor Ramoa in the future transfer, overwhelmed them is taking and Bella.

وقالوا له فيما قالوا: And told him what they said:

{ائْتِنَا بِعَذَابِ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنتَ مِنْ الصَّادِقِينَ} {Aútna pains of God that you are of the truthful!
فطلبوا منه وقوع ما حذّرهم عنه من العذاب الأليم وحلول البأس العظيم. So they asked him what occurred and warned him of suffering painful and solutions to the great bass.

فعند ذلك دعا عليهم نبيهم الكريم، فسأل من رب العالمين وإله المرسلين، أن ينصره على القوم المفسدين. When the Holy Prophet called them, he asked from the Lord of the Worlds and the God of Messengers, to support him on the evil people.


فغار الله لغيرته، وغضب لغضبته، واستجاب لدعوته، وأجابه إلى طلبته، وبعث رسله الكرام، وملائكته العظام، فمروا على الخليل إبراهيم، وبشّروه بالغلام العليم، وأخبروه بما جاؤا له من الأمر الجسيم والخطب العميم Fgar God for his jealousy, and anger to Gillth, and responded to his call, and answered to the request, and sent messengers and Gentlemen, bone and his angels, and passed on Hebron Abraham, Bashrōh Balghulam Alim, and told him what they came to him of the Order of the particle and the speeches have wide-ranging

{قَالَ فَمَا خَطْبُكُمْ أَيُّهَا الْمُرْسَلُونَ، قَالُوا إِنَّا أُرْسِلْنَا إِلَى قَوْمٍ مُجْرِمِينَ، لِنُرْسِلَ عَلَيْهِمْ حِجَارَةً مِنْ طِينٍ، مُسَوَّمَةً عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ لِلْمُسْرِفِينَ} {Told you what Khtpkm Safe, say: 'We sent people to criminals, in order to send them stones of clay, when the Lord of the Msomh Mosrovin}


وقال: {وَلَمَّا جَاءَتْ رُسُلُنَا إِبْرَاهِيمَ بِالْبُشْرَى قَالُوا إِنَّا مُهْلِكُو أَهْلِ هَذِهِ الْقَرْيَةِ إِنَّ أَهْلَهَا كَانُوا ظَالِمِينَ، قَالَ إِنَّ فِيهَا لُوطاً قَالُوا نَحْنُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنْ فِيهَا لَنُنَجِّيَنَّهُ وَأَهْلَهُ إِلاَّ امْرَأَتَهُ كَانَتْ مِنْ الْغَابِرِينَ} He said: And Our messengers came to Abraham with glad tidings, say Mhlku the people of this village that people were wrong-doers, he said that where they said to Lot, who we know where to Nngenh and his family, except his wife;}


وقال الله تعالى: {فَلَمَّا ذَهَبَ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الرَّوْعُ وَجَاءَتْهُ الْبُشْرَى يُجَادِلُنَا فِي قَوْمِ لُوطٍ}. God said: {And when Abraham went about horror and shock came in the human Ejadlna sodomites}.


وذلك إنه كان يرجو أن يجيبوا أو ينيبوا ويسلموا ويقلعوا ويرجعوا. And that he had hoped to answer or Innibua and surrender and quit and go back. لهذا قال تعالى: For this he says: {إِنَّ إِبْرَاهِيمَ لَحَلِيمٌ أَوَّاهٌ مُنِيبٌ، يَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ أَعْرِضْ عَنْ هَذَا إِنَّهُ قَدْ جَاءَ أَمْرُ رَبِّكَ وَإِنَّهُمْ آتِيهِمْ عَذَابٌ غَيْرُ مَرْدُودٍ}. Verily, Ibrahim Halim Oh penitent, O Abraham introduce this it is your Lord has come and they torment is Atém return}.

أي أعرض عن هذا وتكلم في غيره فإنه قد حتم أمرهم ووجب عذابهم وتدميرهم وهلاكهم إنه قد جاء أمر ربك أي قد أمر به من لا يرد أمره ولا يرد بأسه ولا معقب لحكمه وإنهم آتيهم عذاب غير مردود. Introduce any of this and spoke in the other it has necessitated them and destroy them and their torment shall be their destruction and that he had come any command of your Lord has commanded those who do not respond or his clothes are not overturn the ruling and that they Atém punishment is irreversible.


وذكر سعيد بن جبير والسدي وقتادة ومحمد بن إسحاق أن إبراهيم عليه السلام جعل يقول " أتهلكون قرية فيها ثلاثمائة مؤمن The Saeed bin Jabir, al-Saddi and Qatada, Mohammed ibn Ishaq Ibrahim peace be upon him to make "The village where three hundred Othlkun believer

قالوا لا They do not
قال فمائتا مؤمن Said Vmaúta believer
قالوا لا They do not
قال فأربعون مؤمناً Said Verbon believer
قالوا: لا They said: Do not
قال فأربعة عشر مؤمناً Four out said tenth believer
قالوا لا They do not

قال ابن إسحاق: إلى أن قال: "أفرأيتم إن كان فيها مؤمن واحد Ibn Ishaq said: that said, "Have you thought about that he was a believer and one

قالوا لا" They said no "
قال: { إِنَّ فِيهَا لُوطاً قَالُوا نَحْنُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَنْ فِيهَا} الآية. Said: 'The Lot, where they said we know! Including the verse.


قال الله تعالى :{وَلَمَّا جَاءَتْ رُسُلُنَا لُوطاً سِيءَ بِهِمْ وَضَاقَ بِهِمْ ذَرْعاً وَقَالَ هَذَا يَوْمٌ عَصِيبٌ}. Allah says: {And when Our messengers came to Lot, and their tired of this and said rough day}.


قال المفسرون: Commentators said: لما فصلت الملائكة من عند إبراهيم، وهم جبريل وميكائيل وإسرافيل، أقبلوا حتى أتوا أرض سدوم، في صُوَرِ شُبّانٍ حِسَانٍ اختباراً من الله تعالى لقوم لوط، وإقامة للحجة عليهم، فتضيفوا لوطاً عليه السلام وذلك عند غروب الشمس، فخشي إن لم يضفهم أن يضيفهم غيره، وحسبهم بشراً من الناس What separated the angels from when Abraham, who are Gabriel and Michael, Israafeel turned out so came the land of Sodom, in the images young Hassan, a test from Allah to the people of Lot, and to establish the proof against them, Vtadhavo Lot peace be upon him, and when the sun sets, Fajhi if Advhm to add them elsewhere, Hsabhm human beings and people

{وسِيءَ بِهِمْ وَضَاقَ بِهِمْ ذَرْعاً وَقَالَ هَذَا يَوْمٌ عَصِيبٌ}. {And bad to them and fed up with them and said this is a distressful day}.

قال ابن عباس ومجاهد وقتادة ومحمد بن إسحاق، شديد بلاؤه، وذلك لما يعلم من مدافعته الليلة عنهم، كما كان يصنع بهم في غيرهم، وكانوا قد اشترطوا عليه أن لا يضيف أحداً، ولكن رأى من لا يمكن المحيد عنه. Ibn Abbas, Mujahid and Qatada, Muhammad ibn Ishaq, severe weakness, and it knows what the night defended them, as he did them in others, they had forced him to anyone that does not add, but can not be seen from the Neutralizer him.


وذكر قتادة He said Qatada أنهم وردوا عليه وهو في أرض له، يعمل فيها فتضيفوا، فاستحيا منهم، وانطلق أمامهم، وجعل يعرض لهم في الكلام لعلهم ينصرفون عن هذه القرية، وينزلون في غيرها And they replied it is in the land of his, which works Vtadhavo, Vasthia them, and dashed in front of them, and make presents to them in speech so that they might walk away from this village, and staying in other

فقال لهم فيما قال: Said to them, as he said: والله يا هؤلاء ما أعلم على وجه الأرض أهل بلد أخبث من هؤلاء، ثم مشى قليلاً ثم أعاد ذلك عليهم، حتى كرره أربع مرات. O God, and they know what on earth the people of the country of the most insidious of these, then walked a bit, then returned it to them, even repeated four times. قال: وكانوا قد أمروا أن لا يهلكوهم حتى يشهد عليهم نبيّهم بذلك. He said: They had been ordered not to even see them Ahlkuhm prophet to do so.


وقال السدي: Al-Saddi said: خرجت الملائكة من عند إبراهيم نحو قرية لوط، فأتوها نصف النهار، فلما بلغوا سدوم، لقوا ابنة لوط تستقي من الماء لأهلها، وكانت له ابنتان اسم الكبرى "ريثا"، والصغرى "زغرتا"، When the angels came out of Abraham towards the village of Lot, Votoha half a day, when they reached Sodom, Lot's daughter were to draw water for her family, and his two daughters were big name "heir", and small "Zgharta"

فقالوا لها : يا جارية هل من منزل؟ They said to her: Are you running from the house?

فقالت لهم: She said to them: مكانكم لا تدخلوا حتى آتيكم، فرقت عليهم من قومها، Do not enter your place even come to you, her people dispersed them,

فأتت أباها فقالت: يا أبتاه،أرادك فتيان على باب المدينة، ما رأيت وجوه قوم قط هي أحسن منهم، لا يأخذهم قومك، فيفضحوهم. She came to her father, she said: 'O Father, Eradk boys on the door of the city, I saw the faces of people who are never the best of them, your people do not take them, Vivdhohm.

وقد كان قومه نهوه أن يضيف رجلاً فقالوا: خل عنا فلنضف الرجال. Nhoh his people was to add a man they said vinegar Flandv us men.

فجاء بهم، فلم يعلم أحد إلا أهل البيت Came to them, no one knows except the people of House

فخرجت امرأته فأخبرت قومها، فقالت: إن في بيت لوط رجالاً ما رأيت مثل وجوههم قط فجاءه قومه يهرعون إليه. His wife went out I told her people, she said: The men in the house of Lot's what I saw their faces, such as never came and his people come running to him.


وقوله : {وَمِنْ قَبْلُ كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ السَّيِّئَاتِ} . And he said: {and they were working before the evil}.

أي هذا مع ما سلف لهم من الذنوب العظيمة الكبيرة الكثيرة، This with any of the above have the great sins of the many large,


{قَالَ يَا قَوْمِ هَؤُلاَءِ بَنَاتِي هُنَّ أَطْهَرُ لَكُمْ} {They said: O my people my daughters are purer for you!
يرشدهم إلى غشيان نسائهم، وهن بناته شرعاً لأن النبي للأمة بمنزلة الوالد، كما ورد في الحديث Guide them to their women swoon, and they religiously because the daughters of the Prophet is like the father of the nation, as stated in the modern


وكما قال تعالى: {النَّبِيُّ أَوْلَى بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ مِنْ أَنْفُسِهِمْ وَأَزْوَاجُهُ أُمَّهَاتُهُمْ} As he says: the first prophet of the believers themselves, their mothers and wives!

وفي قول بعض الصحابة والسلف وهو أب لهم. In the words of some of the companions and advances, a father to them. وهذا كقوله: {أَتَأْتُونَ الذُّكْرَانَ مِنْ الْعَالَمِينَ، وَتَذَرُونَ مَا خَلَقَ لَكُمْ رَبُّكُمْ مِنْ أَزْوَاجِكُمْ بَلْ أَنْتُمْ قَوْمٌ عَادُونَ}. Such as saying this: {ye commit the males of both worlds, and leave what your Lord created for you wives of the people, but you Aadon}.

وهذا هو الذي نص عليه مجاهد وسعيد بن جبير والربيع بن أنس وقتادة والسدّي ومحمد بن إسحاق وهو الصواب. This is stipulated by Mujahid, Said bin Jabir ibn Anas and spring and Qatada, al-Saddi and Muhammad ibn Ishaq is the correct.

وقوله: {فَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَلا تُخْزُونِي فِي ضَيْفِي أَلَيْسَ مِنْكُمْ رَجُلٌ رَشِيدٌ} And saying: Fear God and Tkhozona Dafa in your man is not rational}
نهى لهم عن تعاطي ما لا يليق من الفاحشة، وشهادة عليهم بأنه ليس فيهم رجل له مسكة، ولا فيه خير، بل الجميع سفهاء، فجرة أقوياء، كفرة أغبياء . Forbade them from taking what is not worthy of immorality, and as a testimony against them is not a man of them grab him, and the good, it fools everyone, triggered by strong, stupid infidels.
وكان هذا من جملة ما أراد الملائكة أن يسمعوه منه من قبل أن يسألوه عنه. This was, inter alia, the angels wanted to hear from him before to ask him about it.


فقال قومه عليهم لعنة الله الحميد المجيد. He said his people have the curse of Allah Hamid Majid. مجيبين لنبيهم فيما أمرهم به من الأمر السديد : Respondents to their Prophet as ordered by the good of the order:

{قَالُوا لَقَدْ عَلِمْتَ مَا لَنَا فِي بَنَاتِكَ مِنْ حَقٍّ وَإِنَّكَ لَتَعْلَمُ مَا نُرِيدُ} {I have learned what they said to us in the right and your daughters to learn what you want!


يقولون: عليهم لعائن الله، لقد علمت يا لوط إنه لا أربّ لنا في نسائنا، وإنك لتعلم مرادنا وغرضنا "من غير النساء". They say they Aaún to God, I've learned that O Lot no interest to us in our women, and you know what we want for our purpose, "non-women."

واجهوا بهذا الكلام القبيح رسولهم الكريم، ولم يخافوا سطوة العظيم، ذي العذاب الأليم. Faced with this ugly talk messenger decent, and did not fear the influence of the great, a painful torment. ولهذا قال عليه السلام That said, peace be upon him

{قَالَ لَوْ أَنَّ لِي بِكُمْ قُوَّةً أَوْ آوِي إِلَى رُكْنٍ شَدِيدٍ} {Said that if you force me, or accommodated to the corner too!
ود أن لو كان له بهم قوة، أو له منعة وعشيرة ينصرونه عليهم، ليحل بهم ما يستحقونه من العذاب، على هذا الخطاب Dr. Lu was with them, force, or kept him and the clan Ansrunh them, to replace what they deserve from their torment, this discourse

عن أبي سلمة عن أبي هريرة أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال "رحمة الله على لوط، إن كان يأوي إلى ركن شديد، يعني الله عز وجل، فما بعث الله بعده نبي إلا في ثروة من قومه". From Abu Salamah from Abu Hurayrah that the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him said, "God's mercy on the Lot, that was home to the corner too, I mean, God, what God sent prophet after him but in the wealth of his people."


ذكر المفسرون وغيرهم أن نبي الله لوطاً عليه السلام جعل يمانع قومه الدخول، ويدافعهم، والباب مغلق، وهم يرومون فتحه وولوجه، وهو يعظهم وينهاهم من وراء الباب، وكل ما لهم في إلحاح وإنحاح، فلما ضاق الأمر وعسر الحال قال ما قال {قَالَ لَوْ أَنَّ لِي بِكُمْ قُوَّةً أَوْ آوِي إِلَى رُكْنٍ شَدِيدٍ} لأحللت بكم النكال. Male commentators and others that the Prophet of God to Lot peace be upon him to make objection to his people in, and Idafhm, and the door is closed, and they were eager to open it and Oluge, which is preached to them and forbid them from behind the door, all that they have the urgency and Anhah, and when he fed it and indigestion as he said what he said {he said if the you force me or went to the corner too! I had permitted you Alnekal.


قالت الملائكة {يَا لُوطُ إِنَّا رُسُلُ رَبِّكَ لَنْ يَصِلُوا إِلَيْكَ} Angels said: O Lot messengers of your Lord will not reach you!

وذكروا أن جبريل عليه السلام خرج عليهم فضرب وجوههم خفقة بطرف جناحه، فطمست أعينهم، حتى قيل: إنها غارت بالكلية، ولم يبق لها محل ولا عين، ولا أثر، فرجعوا يتحسسون مع الحيطان، ويتوعدون رسول الرحمن، ويقولون: إذا كان الغد كان لنا وله شأن. They said that Jibril, peace be upon him came out they smite their faces beat tip of his wing, Aftmst their eyes, so it was said: It's jealousy of the college, leaving her place of no eye, no trace, they returned allergic with the walls, and vows Messenger Rahman, and they say: If tomorrow we had with significant.


قال الله تعالى {وَلَقَدْ رَاوَدُوهُ عَنْ ضَيْفِهِ فَطَمَسْنَا أَعْيُنَهُمْ فَذُوقُوا عَذَابِي وَنُذُرِ، وَلَقَدْ صَبَّحَهُمْ بُكْرَةً عَذَابٌ مُسْتَقِرٌّ}. Allah says {Raodoh have their eyes on the home Aftmsna taste My punishment and vows, and I reel Subhhm torment stable}.


فذلك أن الملائكة تقدمت إلى لوط عليه السلام آمرين له بأن يسري هو وأهله من آخر الليل، ولا يلتفت منكم أحد، يعني عند سماع صوت العذاب إذا حلّ بقومه، وأمروه أن يكون سيره في آخرهم كالسّاقة لهم. That made ​​the angels to Lot peace be upon him two things to him that is valid and his family from last night, do not you turn one, I mean when you hear the voice of doom if his people to resolve, and ordered him to be walking in the Calcaqh the last of them.


وقوله: {إِلاَّ امْرَأَتَكَ} على قراءة النصب، يحتمل أن يكون مستثنى من قوله {فَأَسْرِ بِأَهْلِكَ}، كأنه يقول: إلا امرأتك فلا تَسْرِ بها. And he said: {} but your wife to read the monument, is likely to be excluded from your family saying Wasser {}, as if to say: but your wife does not go out. ويحتمل أن يكون من قوله: {وَلاَ يَلْتَفِتْ مِنْكُمْ أَحَدٌ إِلاَّ امْرَأَتَكَ}، And is likely to be saying: you do not pay attention unless your wife a},

أي: فإنها ستلتفت فيصيبها ما أصابهم. Ie, they Stlf and taste what they have suffered. ويقويّ هذا الاحتمال قراءة الرفع، ولكن الأول أظهر في المعنى والله أعلم. And strengthens this possibility, read the lift, but first demonstrated in the meaning and God knows best.

قال السهيلي واسم امرأة لوط "والهة" واسم امرأة نوح "والغة". Suhaili said the name of Lot's wife "and the goddess" and the name of Noah's wife "and Algh."


وقالوا له مبشرين بهلاك هؤلاء البغاة العتاة الملعونين النظراء والأشباه الذين جعلهم الله سلفاً لكل خائن مريب: And said to him, these missionaries doom hardened prostitutes damned counterparts and who likes them is a traitor in advance of each suspicious:

{إِنَّ مَوْعِدَهُمْ الصُّبْحُ أَلَيْسَ الصُّبْحُ بِقَرِيبٍ}. {The promised place Waxing Waxing is not a relative}.


هلاك قوم لوط عليه السلام Loss of sodomites, peace be upon him

فلما خرج لوط عليه السلام بأهله، وهم ابنتاه، لم يتبعه منهم رجل واحد، ويقال: إن امرأته خرجت معه فالله أعلم. When he came out of Lot peace be upon his family, and they are his daughters, did not follow them one man, and it is said that his wife went out with him God knows best.

فلما خلصوا من بلادهم، وطلعت الشمس فكان عند شروقها جاءهم من أمر الله ما لا يرد. When he concluded from their country, and the sun was at the sunrise from the command of Allah came to them does not respond. ومن البأس الشديد ما لا يمكن أن يصد. The bass is deep could oppose.

قال الله تعالى: {فَلَمَّا جَاءَ أَمْرُنَا جَعَلْنَا عَالِيَهَا سَافِلَهَا وَأَمْطَرْنَا عَلَيْهَا حِجَارَةً مِنْ سِجِّيلٍ مَنْضُودٍ، مُسَوَّمَةً عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ وَمَا هِيَ مِنْ الظَّالِمِينَ بِبَعِيدٍ}. Allah says: {And when Our commandment came to us upside Savlha and rained down on them stones of baked clay Mndod, Msomh when your Lord and what is far away from the oppressors}.


قالوا: اقتلعهن جبريل بطرف جناحه من قرارهن، وكن سبع مدن بمن فيهن من الأمم، فقالوا: إنهم كانوا أربع مائة نسمة. They said: Jibril Aqtalhen wing party of their decision, and be seven cities, including those nations, they said, they were four hundred people. وقيل: أربعة آلاف نسمة وما معهم من الحيوانات، وما يتبع تلك المدن من الأراضي والأماكن والمعتملات، فرفع الجميع حتى بلغ بهن عنان السماء، حتى سمعت الملائكة أصوات ديكتهم ونباح كلابهم، ثم قلبها عليهم، فجعل عاليها سافلها. It was said that four thousand people and with animals, and follow those cities of the land, places and Almatmlat, raised them all until he reached the sky, until I heard the voices of angels Dicthm and barking dogs, and then her heart to them, and started Savlha upside. قال مجاهد: فكان أول ما سقط منها شرفاتها. Mujahid said: What was the first of which fell balconies.


{وَأَمْطَرْنَا عَلَيْهَا حِجَارَةً مِنْ سِجِّيلٍ} {And rained down on them stones of baked clay!
والسجّيل فارسي معرب، وهو الشديد الصّلب القوي (منضود) أي يتبع بعضها بعضاً في نزولها عليهم من السماء Persian parsed and shale, a very strong steel (Mndod) which follow each other in their descent from the sky


(مسومة) أي معلمة مكتوب على كل حجر اسم صاحبه، الذي يهبط عليه فيدمغه، كما قال: {مُسَوَّمَةً عِنْدَ رَبِّكَ لِلْمُسْرِفِينَ} (Msomh) any parameter is written on each stone the name of the owner, which reduces the Vidmgh him, he said: {Msomh when Lord of the Mosrovin}

وكما قال تعالى: {وَأَمْطَرْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ مَطَراً فَسَاءَ مَطَرُ الْمُنذَرِينَ}. As he says: The rain rained down on them silently omniscient rain}.

وقال تعالى : {وَالْمُؤْتَفِكَةَ أَهْوَى، فَغَشَّاهَا مَا غَشَّى} He says: {And Almatvkh love, what Vgchaha trance} يعني: قلبها فأهوى بها منكّسة عاليها سافلها، وغشاها بمطر من حجارة من سجيل، متتابعة مسومة مرقومة، على كل حجر اسم صاحبه الذي سقط عليه من الحاضرين، منهم في بلدهم والغائبين عنها من المسافرين، والنازحين والشاذين منها. Means: the heart by Nick Vohoy Savlha upside, and Gchaha rain of stones of baked clay, on consecutive Msomh Mrkoma, every stone on the name of his friend, who fell upon the audience, including in their country and absentees of travelers, and displaced people and perverts it.


ويقال: إن امرأة لوط مكثت مع قومها. It is said that Lot's wife stayed with her ​​people.

ويقال: إنها خرجت مع زوجها وبنتيها، ولكنها لما سمعت الصيحة، وسقوط البلدة) التفتت إلى قومها، وخالف أمر ربها قديماً وحديثاً، وقالت: وا قوماه فسقط عليها حجر، فدمغها وألحقها بقومها، إذ كانت على دينهم، وكانت عيناً لهم، على من يكون عند لوط من الضيفان. It is said she went out with her ​​husband and her two daughters, but what I heard the cry, and the fall of the town) turned to her people, and violated is Lord, past and present, and said: Wa Qomah fell upon a stone, Vdmgha and inflicted Bakovernma, as was their religion, and was kind to them, on who is When Lot's of guests to.


كما قال تعالى: {ضَرَبَ اللَّهُ مَثَلاً لِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا اِمْرَأَةَ نُوحٍ وَاِمْرَأَةَ لُوطٍ كَانَتَا تَحْتَ عَبْدَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا صَالِحَيْنِ فَخَانَتَاهُمَا فَلَمْ يُغْنِيَا عَنْهُمَا مِنْ اللَّهِ شَيْئاً وَقِيلَ ادْخُلاَ النَّارَ مَعَ الدَّاخِلِينَ} The Almighty said: Allah hit the example for those who disbelieve the wife of Noah and Lot's wife were under two of our righteous slaves yet betrayed them Agnea them from God and it was said the fire had passed with the entrants!


أي خانتاهما في الدين فلم يتبعاهما فيه. Khantahma in any religion not Itbaihama it. وليس المراد أنهما كانتا على فاحشة، حاشا وكلا. It does not mean they were on the obscene, misguided and lost. فإن الله لا يقدر على نبي قط أن تبغى امرأته، كما قال ابن عباس وغيره من أئمة السلف والخلف: ما بغت امرأة نبي قط. Then God is not able to be a non-prophet never his wife, as Ibn Abbas and other leaders of the earlier and later: What a woman prophet never Bgt. ومن قال خلاف هذا فقد أخطأ خطأ كبيراً. It is said other than this has missed a big mistake.

وقوله هنا: {وَمَا هِيَ مِنْ الظَّالِمِينَ بِبَعِيدٍ} أي وما هذه العقوبة ببعيدة ممن أشبههم في فعلهم. And say here: {What are the oppressors of so long ago}, and any punishment of those who Ohbham far away in their reaction. ولهذا ذهب من ذهب من العلماء إلى أن اللائط يرجم سواء كان محصناً أو لا، ونصَّ عليه الشافعي وأحمد بن حنبل وطائفة كثيرة من الأئمة. This went from went from scientists that Allaút stoned, whether he was married or not, was stated by the Shafi'i and Ahmad ibn Hanbal and the range of many of the imams.


واحتجوا أيضاً بما رواه الإمام أحمد وأهل السنن من حديث عمرو بن أبي عمرو، عن عكرمة، عن ابن عباس أن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: "من وجدتموه يعمل عمل قوم لوط فاقتلوا الفاعل والمفعول به". And also protested the report narrated by Imam Ahmad and the Sunan from 'Amr bin Abi' Amr, 'Ikrimah, from Ibn Abbas that the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him said: "Whoever you find doing the work of Lot's people then kill the actor and object."


وجعل الله مكان تلك البلاد بحرة منتنة لا ينتفع بمائها ولا بما حولها من الأراضي المتاخمة لفنائها، لرداءتها ودناءتها، فصارت عبرة ومثلة وعظة وآية على قدرة الله تعالى وعظمته وعزته في انتقامه ممن خالف أمره وكذّب رسله واتّبع هواه وعصى مولاه. And God made ​​a place that country Bahra skunk does not benefit Bmaúha not including the surrounding land adjacent to the extinction, of poor quality and Dinatha, it became a lesson and that posed by the sermon and verse on the ability of God and His greatness and pride in the revenge of those who violated his order and lied to his apostles, and follow his desires and disobeys his Lord. ودليلاً على رحمته بعباده المؤمنين في انجائه إياهم من المهلكات، وإخراجه إياهم من النور إلى الظلمات، And proof of His mercy towards His slaves believers in Angaúh them from doom one to Hell, and bringing them from darkness to light,


كما قال تعالى: {إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لآَيَةً وَمَا كَانَ أَكْثَرُهُمْ مُؤْمِنِينَ، وَإِنَّ رَبَّكَ لَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الرَّحِيمُ}. As he says: Surely, in that verse and what was the most faithful, and thy Lord is the Almighty, Most Merciful.


وقال الله تعالى: {فَأَخَذَتْهُمْ الصَّيْحَةُ مُشْرِقِينَ، فَجَعَلْنَا عَالِيَهَا سَافِلَهَا وَأَمْطَرْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ حِجَارَةً مِنْ سِجِّيلٍ، إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لآَيَاتٍ لِلْمُتَوَسِّمِينَ، وَإِنَّهَا لَبِسَبِيلٍ مُقِيمٍ، إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لآيَةً لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ} God said: {Vokhzthm cry sunrise kept us diving upside Savlha and rained down on them stones of baked clay, in that are signs for Mtosameen, It is a process of a resident, said that in order to sign for the believers! أي من نظر بعين الفراسة والتوسّم فيهم، كيف غير الله تلك البلاد وأهلها، وكيف جعلها بعد ما كانت آهلة عامرة، هالكة غامرة. Into consideration any of the physiognomy and Altosm them, how is God that country and its people, and how to make it after it was full of full of, mortal overwhelming.


كما روى الترمذي وغيره مرفوعا ً "اتقوا فراسة المؤمن فإنه ينظر بنور الله". ثم قرأ: {إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لآيَاتٍ لِلْمُتَوَسِّمِينَ}. As narrated by Tirmidhi and others brought "Fear the intuition of the believer is viewed by the light of God." Then he recited: {In that are signs for Mtosameen}.


وقوله {وَإِنَّهَا لَبِسَبِيلٍ مُقِيمٍ} أي لبطريق مهيع مسلوك إلى الآن، And he {It is a process of living 'ie, the path of Mhaa Msloc to now,

كما قال: {وَإِنَّكُمْ لَتَمُرُّونَ عَلَيْهِمْ مُصْبِحِينَ، وَبِاللَّيْلِ أَفَلاَ تَعْقِلُون} He also said: {And you have to pass by Msubhan, and at night do you not understand!


وقال تعالى: {وَلَقَد تَرَكْنَا مِنْهَا آيَةً بَيِّنَةً لِقَوْمٍ يَعْقِلُونَ} He says: {And We have left, including any evidence for people who have sense!

وقال تعالى: {فَأَخْرَجْنَا مَنْ كَانَ فِيهَا مِنْ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، فَمَا وَجَدْنَا فِيهَا غَيْرَ بَيْتٍ مِنْ الْمُسْلِمِينَ، وَتَرَكْنَا فِيهَا آيَةً لِلَّذِينَ يَخَافُونَ الْعَذَابَ الأَلِيمَ}. He says: {We bring forth from where the faithful, what we found is the home of Muslims, which left for those who fear the painful torment}.

أي تركناها عبرة وعظة لمن خاف عذاب الآخرة وخشي الرحمن بالغيب، وخاف مقام ربه ونهى النفس عن الهوى، فانزجر عن محارم الله وترك معاصيه وخاف أن يشابه قوم لوط. We left a lesson and a warning to those who feared punishment of the Hereafter and the Unseen Rahman feared, and feared standing before his Lord and restrained himself from passion, Phanzger the giver and leave his sins and he is afraid to resemble the people of Loot. ومن تشبه بقوم فهو منهم، وإن لم يكن من كل وجه فمن بعض الوجوه، كما قال بعضهم: It imitates a people is one of them, although not every aspect of it is in some respects, as some of them said:


فإن لم تكونوا قوم لوط بعينهم ** فما قوم لوط منكم ببعيد If you are not certain the people of Lot ** What the people of Lot far away from you

فالعاقل اللبيب الفاهم الخائف من ربه يمتثل ما أمره الله به عز وجل، ويقبل ما أرشده إليه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم من إتيان ما خلق له من الزوجات الحلال، والجواري من السراري ذوات الجمال. Vaql Allbeb Fahim fearful of his Lord ordered him to comply with what God Almighty, and accepts what led him to the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him from having intercourse with the creation of his wife of wives, concubines and slaves of the women with beauty. وإياه أن يتبع كل شيطان مريد. And him to follow all the devil who wants to. فيحق عليه الوعيد. Entitled him intimidating. ويدخل في قوله تعالى: {وَمَا هِيَ مِنْ الظَّالِمِينَ بِبَعِيدٍ}. Included in the meaning: what are the oppressors of the far}.
[/quote]


btw to answer your last question i dont believe those people ^^
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  • 4 weeks later...
Can I just say that the Bible and other religious texts [b]should not[/b] be read literally for they were written to be taken in a metaphorical way. You are supposed to take what you want from the text, learn the moral from the story and walk away a better person for it. Not throw it at someone's face and make them believe as you do. That would be against being good, is it not?

This is one of the main reasons why I am pagan wiccan. We have no texts. We have no one really telling us what to do. We follow Mother Nature and allow Her wisdom to guide us. Nature is both chaos and order. She is wild, free and wonderful. She is both alluring and frightening.

Humans put too much value on who is what and what is this.


[quote name='Will' timestamp='1303161160' post='95375']
[font="Century Gothic"]Animals are not gay, animals don't feel love.
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[/quote]
This is an incorrect statement on many levels. Animals show homosexuality. In fact, in science, we have found that the most intelligent of animals are indeed homosexual. Such as: Elephants, Apes, Chimpanzees, Dolphins, Sea Gulls, Penguins and the list goes on. There are 1500 animals that practice homosexuality.

You really need to get your facts straight. I don't want to offend you but your posts are very critical and irrational. I think if you educated yourself a bit more about religion and science you would be more well rounded.

And also, who are you to say that animals do not feel love? When I walk through my door, my dog is happy to see me. She sits by my feet, she licks my face (which in dog behavior is a sign of affection) and so forth. I'm not saying I'm an expert but I did go to college, I do have my degrees and I am educated. I know my animal behaviors and I did study them. I can tell you this post really offended me. In fact, it highly offended me. Animals don't feel love... That is just cold and heartless.

We are animals. We are part of the animal kingdom. The only thing that separates us from chimps is 1 chromosome.

And if you do not believe that there is homosexuality in the animal world (besides us) here is proof:

[url="http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx"]1500 animal species practice homosexuality[/url]

[quote]"One fundamental premise in social debates has been that homosexuality is unnatural. This premise is wrong. Homosexuality is both common and highly essential in the lives of a number of species," explains Petter Boeckman, who is the academic advisor for the "Against Nature's Order?" exhibition.[/quote]

[quote]Lions are also homosexual. Male lions often band together with their brothers to lead the pride. To ensure loyalty, they strengthen the bonds by often having sex with each other.[/quote]

[quote]This occurs especially among birds that will pair with one partner for life, which is the case with geese and ducks.[/quote]
Now, allow me to state that birds do in fact show love. They bond which is a sign of love. Bonding together, cuddling, showing affection and nuzzling to me is all signs of love.

[url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/5550488/Homosexual-behaviour-widespread-in-animals-according-to-new-study.html"]Homosexuali Behavior in Animals[/url]

[quote]However, in the latest study the authors claim the phenomenon is not only widespread but part of a necessary biological adaptation for the survival of the species.[/quote]

[url="http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/33"]The Science of Homosexuality[/url]

[quote]It is the genetic and biological traits that lead to predisposition towards certain behavior characteristics. This approach allows for the biological factors in homosexuality, without limiting the subject to exclusively culture or biology.[/quote] Edited by wunderbar
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[quote name='wunderbar' timestamp='1313690297' post='148717']
[b]Can I just say that the Bible and other religious texts [b]should not[/b] be read literally for they were written to be taken in a metaphorical way[/b]. You are supposed to take what you want from the text, learn the moral from the story and walk away a better person for it. Not throw it at someone's face and make them believe as you do. That would be against being good, is it not?
[/quote]
That my friend is false. There are things that are in a metaphorical sense, but the majority of what is written is meant to be taken literally. Why do you think its all metaphorical?
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[quote name='wheneverythingfalls' timestamp='1313707104' post='148867']
That my friend is false. There are things that are in a metaphorical sense, but the majority of what is written is meant to be taken literally. Why do you think its all metaphorical?
[/quote]
Because the Bible was written as a book of morals and stories. Do you really think it was Adam and Eve? If you say yes, then how did they populate the world? They only had Cain and Able. If this is true, then that means Cain or Able had to get Eve pregnant in order to make more children. So right there, there is incest which is against the Bible's moral code. That cannot be taken in a literal sense because it contradicts itself.

If you were to take the Bible literally, then you should be taking it as it was written then. Meaning, you would have to do everything that it is telling you. Such as but not limited to: not having a divorce, waiting until marriage for sex (which should be optional depending on the person), eating feces, throwing stones, drinking blood, eating flesh, and dying from an orgasm.

The Bible is filled with things that in today's modern society and even back in those days was up to [b]the reader[/b] to decide what to take from it. There is nothing you should literally from eating poop as it says to do in Ezekiel 4:12-13. That story was to show you, the reader, that things could be worse. You could be so poor that you are forced to eat feces. Be it from a human or from a cow. Or at least that is how I take this Bible verse:

[quote]"And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. And the LORD said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread among the Gentiles, whither I will drive them."[/quote]

Religious texts are there to teach you lessons. They didn't actually happen if you really sit down and think about it. In terms of the Bible, especially the New Testament, the Authors themselves were real people. Such as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John who wrote the four gospels. The gospels themselves can be used as a historical reference tool but even then historians and Biblical scholars have a hard time determining what is absolute truth and what isn't.

Did Jesus really raise from the grave? We don't know. It could be possible. As weird as that sounds it actually is medically possible because back in those times many people were buried without really knowing if someone dead or not.

The New Testament varies greatly from the Old Testament. However, in the end, text are there to show people morals. What you take out of a story is what you take. The Greeks had their religion and their texts. They understood it was stories of the Gods and Goddesses. Each one was there to show people how to behave and how to be thankful for what they have.

If you really read the Bible from cover to cover, if you really study it, there are some things you can get out of it and there is a lot you can question about it.

Again, you can take something literal but even you must admit there are many things in the Bible that are hard to be taken literally. Many of the things Tara posted alone are hard to take literally. Edited by wunderbar
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As for Adam and Eve, I believe that fully, It wasn't until sin entered the world that they had kids. So yes, it is against the bible what they would have done, but it also says that they brought sin into the world. Its not contradiction because it was after sin entered the world.

To quote rules from the Old testament is wrong, In Christianity at least, because Jesus came back and changed most of that. The Old Testament is more stories and less relevant. E.g. Stoning someone if they aren't circumcised, sacrificing etc. You cant use law that Jesus said wasn't unnecessary anymore as fact.
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[quote name='wheneverythingfalls' timestamp='1313738998' post='148981']
As for Adam and Eve, I believe that fully, It wasn't until sin entered the world that they had kids. So yes, it is against the bible what they would have done, but it also says that they brought sin into the world. Its not contradiction because it was after sin entered the world.

To quote rules from the Old testament is wrong, In Christianity at least, because Jesus came back and changed most of that. The Old Testament is more stories and less relevant. E.g. Stoning someone if they aren't circumcised, sacrificing etc. You cant use law that Jesus said wasn't unnecessary anymore as fact.
[/quote]
You know that the story of Adam and Eve is not original correct? And there is no evidence of it ever happening. How do you explain the dinosaurs? The theory of evolution. How our species is a primate branch?

The story of Adam and Eve is nothing more than a story that was set down by Christians to explain why we are here and why there is evil in the world. It is very similar to the story of Zeus and Pandora.

[quote]Once up a time, a long time ago, Zeus ordered Hephaestus (Aphrodite's husband) to make him a daughter. It was the first woman made out of clay. Hephaestus made a beautiful woman and named her Pandora.[/quote]

[quote]Zeus gave Pandora a little box with a big heavy lock on it. He made her promise never to open the box. He gave the key to Pandora’s husband and told him to never open the box. Zeus was sure that Epimetheus' curiosity would get the better of him, and that either Epimetheus or his brother would open the box.

Pandora was very curious. She wanted to see what was inside the box, but Epimetheus said no. Better not. "You know your father," Epimetheus sighed, referring to Zeus. "He’s a tricky one."

One day, when Epimetheus lay sleeping, Pandora stole the key and opened the box.

Out flew every kind of disease and sickness, hate and envy, and all the bad things that people had never experienced before. Pandora slammed the lid closed, but it was too late. All the bad things were already out of the box. They flew away, out into the world.[/quote]
[url="http://greece.mrdonn.org/greekgods/pandora.html"]Source[/url]

Now, there are differences of course. However, the story explains how a [b]woman[/b] which in both Ancient Greek and in Early Christianity were not regarded very highly. Men wrote these stories and for the most part they had to have explanations for things around them. Many of the Greek stories tie in and are similar to the Christian stories of the Old Testament. I don't know what to think about this because if you look at the story of Noah and his Ark there are many, many different tellings of the same story in different cultures but we have no evidence of a flood during that time so one can only assume it's a popular story. Or perhaps there is a Divine Being.

Pagans have their own explanation on how the world began. We have our own festivals and we even have own stories that have tried to been preserved but many of them were never written down. They are also very similar to these same stories.

What I'm getting at here is, anything in these books should be taken by the reader and taken with a lesson. It should not be taken as something concrete or something that is definite because not even things in science are 100%. We are still learning as much as we can about certain types of dinosaurs.

But there is more proof how dinosaurs didn't completely die out and they just evolved into modern day birds such as chickens. When you examine how a chicken grows when it's in its egg, it will start off with scale like skin and teeth. That will then start to slowly turn into the roasters and chickens we know today. There was even proof of this after the Ice Age. All of this is just something I know. Feel free to look up any of this on the internet or see if you can find a book on it. I'm not making any of this up.

As for the New Testament, those are also stories. Granted, as I stated in my post above, some of them can be considered historical such as the Gospels. This is especially true for the Gospels because we still have the documents. We don't have just translations, we have the original writings from John, Mark, Luke and Matthew.

I showed you lines from the Bible which you stated should always be taken literally. The Bible contradicts itself a lot. It states that God does not change but He does change and He does change his mind. Throwing out the Old Testament still leaves us with the New Testament that states mostly peace, forgiveness and that we should all love each other. You know, until the whole part about the rapture and the end of days. Love everyone except for atheists. But I'm not going to get into that too much.

So that being said, if you are telling me that we should abide by the New Testament then the answer to the original question should be simple.

[b]Do not pass judgment for it is not yours to pass. Love one another for we are all part of the same family.[/b]
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  • 2 weeks later...
[quote name='Will' timestamp='1303161160' post='95375']
[font="Century Gothic"]Animals are not gay, animals don't feel love.
[/font]
[/quote]

How can we know what other creatures and species feel? I think animals feel love. They have motherly instincts (just like humans..). Swans for example. They stick with the same partner their whole lives..
I definately think that animals feel love. Maybe they don't feel it in the same way as humans but I think they feel some sort of affection. ;) Otherwise animals wouldn't protect their babies etc. They're not cold and affectionless just because they're not humans..

I have heard of cases where animals have been "heartbroken" and have lost the will to live, refused to eat etc because they've lost their "partner" or a friend. This is very similar to how certain humans react if they where to experience the same thing.

I don't mean to attack you I just want to give my opinion ;) Edited by I.SetFire2TheRain
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[quote name='Unreal' timestamp='1307937599' post='116366']
Just wanted to raise a question to all of you saying that God wouldn't create gays if he hated them. If you believe that God is the creator of All, then he created gays. It also means he created "sins" and "evil" and "illness" and "diseases" and "bad luck" and "satan". The world is full of good and bad. God hates evil.. and sins.. and all that, yet it exists? Why does it exist then? You cannot base your theories upon the statement that God would not create that which he dislikes. It just doesn't make sense and is totally illogical.


As for homosexuality... i'm not gay. But if someone wants to be gay, who cares? I believe in freedom of right. Everyone can express themselves in whatever way they feel appropriate. It's not affecting me so whatever. There's more important issues to be focusing on than hating. Which is just what people LOVE. Whether its hating on gays, lesbians, particular religions or beliefs, "oversize" people, goths.. you name it. Who CARES. Go live your life and stop judging others on theirs because if you're religious and you believe in God, then you will also believe in the afterlife or judgement day or whatever you call it. And in THAT day.. He will decide who done what and what was wrong and who goes there. And trust me. When it comes to that, you'll probably be too worried about all the stuff you've done in your life, so imo people should worry about themselves, try and be good, and let everyone else be.
[/quote]

I think you made an interesting post. But for the matter on whether "God created evil, deseases, illness etc.." It is necessary I know it's a cliché, but one cannot exist without the other. Good cannot exist without bad, love without hate etc. If we're not sad we won't be able to be happy.
I wish there was less hate in the world, but there isn't. How can we feel love but not hate? I think everybody has someone that they dislike for certain reasons. I'm not gay, but I am PRO-GAY. I don't think you choose to be gay. Because you don't choose who you're gonna fall in love with. It just happens. Therefore I think everyone should have equal rights no matter what skin color you may have, which religion you may belong to or which sexual preference you may have.
..
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[quote name='I.SetFire2TheRain' timestamp='1314537229' post='152428']
I think you made an interesting post. But for the matter on whether "God created evil, deseases, illness etc.." It is necessary I know it's a cliché, but one cannot exist without the other. Good cannot exist without bad, love without hate etc. If we're not sad we won't be able to be happy.
I wish there was less hate in the world, but there isn't. How can we feel love but not hate? I think everybody has someone that they dislike for certain reasons. I'm not gay, but I am PRO-GAY. I don't think you choose to be gay. Because you don't choose who you're gonna fall in love with. It just happens. Therefore I think everyone should have equal rights no matter what skin color you may have, which religion you may belong to or which sexual preference you may have.
..
[/quote]
Sorry for the double post. It wouldn't let me edit. Just wanted to say that I agree with everything you said (unreal). I think people should just mind their own business. Edited by I.SetFire2TheRain
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[quote name='Unreal' timestamp='1307937599' post='116366']
Just wanted to raise a question to all of you saying that God wouldn't create gays if he hated them. If you believe that God is the creator of All, then he created gays. It also means he created "sins" and "evil" and "illness" and "diseases" and "bad luck" and "satan". The world is full of good and bad. God hates evil.. and sins.. and all that, yet it exists? Why does it exist then? You cannot base your theories upon the statement that God would not create that which he dislikes. It just doesn't make sense and is totally illogical.


As for homosexuality... i'm not gay. But if someone wants to be gay, who cares? I believe in freedom of right. Everyone can express themselves in whatever way they feel appropriate. It's not affecting me so whatever. There's more important issues to be focusing on than hating. Which is just what people LOVE. Whether its hating on gays, lesbians, particular religions or beliefs, "oversize" people, goths.. you name it. Who CARES. Go live your life and stop judging others on theirs because if you're religious and you believe in God, then you will also believe in the afterlife or judgement day or whatever you call it. And in THAT day.. He will decide who done what and what was wrong and who goes there. And trust me. When it comes to that, you'll probably be too worried about all the stuff you've done in your life, so imo people should worry about themselves, try and be good, and let everyone else be.
[/quote]
Before the fall of man (Adam and Eve sinning) homosexuality was non-existent, neither was any other form of sin. It wasn't until sin entered the world through the fall of man that homosexuality became a factor. God did not create sin, man created sin, God gives everyone the freedom to do as they want and man chooses to sin. God created everything there is, but what people choose to do with what God created is their decision.

And you say that as though Christians judge gays and look down on them. We don't, everyone is a sinner, every sin is as bad as the next one be it murder, blasphemy or homosexuality. There is a lot of unfair judging done by both believers and non believers I do agree, for gays, overweight people, goths and all that. And it is bad and I do think that gays are treated poorly and should be given the same respect as everyone else. But Christians are called to minister to the world and share the word of God. The way that it is done is what really matters.

Also, this is not a Christian
[img]http://blogs.independent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Westboro-Baptist-Church.jpg[/img]
Westboro Church is horrible and in no way reflects how Christians view homosexuals
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I don't have particularly strong feelings either way to be honest, however my father is a presbyterian minister and I am a member of the church and my sister is gay and in a homosexual relationship. This has caused literally no problems in my household, actually that is not correct my sister seemed a bit miffed that no one cared about her sexuality. My father raised me with a pretty good spiritual and biblical education and he always taught me that sex is really not a big deal in terms of faith. Christianity is a faith of relationships and righteousness is about having right relationships with God and others. Who you have sex with is much less important than whether or not you love people. I don't particularly feel that homosexual relationships are sinful as what major christian authors really had a problem with was hedonistic, orgiastic sex and in that context homosexual sex for pleasure's sake is sinful but so too would extramarital sex purely to indulge ones desires be sinful. I won't quote scripture because I was raised to understand, not parrot.

As a general point I would like to say that we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners and it is only through the grace of God that we can ever hope to truly change.
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[quote name='wheneverythingfalls' timestamp='1314583083' post='152794']
Before the fall of man (Adam and Eve sinning) homosexuality was non-existent, neither was any other form of sin. It wasn't until sin entered the world through the fall of man that homosexuality became a factor. God did not create sin, man created sin, God gives everyone the freedom to do as they want and man chooses to sin. God created everything there is, but what people choose to do with what God created is their decision.

And you say that as though Christians judge gays and look down on them. We don't, everyone is a sinner, every sin is as bad as the next one be it murder, blasphemy or homosexuality. There is a lot of unfair judging done by both believers and non believers I do agree, for gays, overweight people, goths and all that. And it is bad and I do think that gays are treated poorly and should be given the same respect as everyone else. But Christians are called to minister to the world and share the word of God. The way that it is done is what really matters.

Also, this is not a Christian
[img]http://blogs.independent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Westboro-Baptist-Church.jpg[img]
Westboro Church is horrible and in no way reflects how Christians view homosexuals
[/quote]
You're using the Bible literally again. A lot of people in modern times don't use the Bible in those ways.

You can't simply ignore the research that states that homosexuality is both an inborn trait and something we learn. There are things in us that is what we call "subconscious choice". For example, 'choosing' which hand to write with is something you do as a subconscious choice as a child. The same glands/hormones/learning environments are the ones that are associated with sexuality. This part of the brain is also responsible for memories and gender identity.

Now, this being said, you could have been gay just as easily as you are straight. It all depends on the born ingredients and the environment. So by psychology and science, sexuality is both nature and nurture. Of course that is all depending on the study but for the most part, this is our understanding. We have back ups of this where as in the Bible, no offense, but it's all allegory.

As for the Westboro Church, I never use them as an example because they are just hate for the sake of hate. They hide behind the religion. However, there are many hateful things that the Church has done and will continue to do. There is no denying this.


[quote name='Cereus' timestamp='1314599916' post='152812']
I don't have particularly strong feelings either way to be honest, however my father is a presbyterian minister and I am a member of the church and my sister is gay and in a homosexual relationship. This has caused literally no problems in my household, actually that is not correct my sister seemed a bit miffed that no one cared about her sexuality. My father raised me with a pretty good spiritual and biblical education and he always taught me that sex is really not a big deal in terms of faith. Christianity is a faith of relationships and righteousness is about having right relationships with God and others. Who you have sex with is much less important than whether or not you love people. I don't particularly feel that homosexual relationships are sinful as what major christian authors really had a problem with was hedonistic, orgiastic sex and in that context homosexual sex for pleasure's sake is sinful but so too would extramarital sex purely to indulge ones desires be sinful. I won't quote scripture because I was raised to understand, not parrot.

As a general point I would like to say that we are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners and it is only through the grace of God that we can ever hope to truly change.
[/quote]
I really like what you have to say. I enjoy that there is proof of some Christians who are educated. :D Even in terms of their own religion.

I'm not shooting anyone down with this statement. At least I surely hope I'm not. :x It's just that a lot of people seem to think that every word in the Bible is complete law which if that were the case... well, I think I'll just say this, many things would be ridiculous to believe and/or live up to. Just my two cents.

I really do not see why any religion should condemn any way of loving.

[b]Love is love. Live and let live. Do none harm to others.[/b] That's all it should be.
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[quote name='wunderbar' timestamp='1315195463' post='154960']
[/quote]
This is a conversation that will never mix. Can me small minded or what ever I don't really mind.
To but it simply, I cant explain it, some Christian may be able to say what I'm trying to but I'm incapable.
People get too caught up in science, God created us, He is outside of all comprehension. He is indescribable as it says countless times in the bible. I cant tell you how it works because I'm not God and will never ever be close to what He is.
More people than not do take the bible as a literal book because of one thing, they have experienced God and that's something you cant ever record, recreate, test or scientifically prove.
If you want to say that is rubbish and they haven't experienced God and its all in their head or placebo or something else I ask, explain the power of the Holy Spirit, explain why its power has brought me to my knees and lead me to tears. Explain what I felt when I was baptized. Explain where my 65yr old Nana gets and maintains her faith from even after close to 40yrs of being in a wheelchair. Explain how my Dad has heard demons screaming due to the power of God.
You cant use science to prove God wrong, you can use it to try cover Him up. But there is no way you can prove the Holy Spirit false.

That ramble may seem off topic or stupid, but what I'm saying is people call the bible a book that isn't literal or is metaphorical only because they haven't experienced God. Yes a lot of it does seem utterly ridiculous! like Samson ripping a lion in half. But if you spend one minute in the presence of God and you'll understand it. Again, it sounds closed minded or stupid but its the only way anyone can fully understand it.
That's why I believe what I believe about homosexuality. I've felt God, I'm not profit or saint or anything but its, again, indescribable.

You may view me as the thickest Christian in the world after reading this, but I say this.
Can you really make a decision on what you believe if you have never felt God? Can you make a fair call by sitting back and thinking "That sounds utterly rubbish, God cant bring dead people back to life" and never attempt to see if its right? Its like deciding you don't like Salmon without ever having tasted it. Edited by wheneverythingfalls
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[quote name='wunderbar' timestamp='1315195463' post='154960']
You're using the Bible literally again.[/quote]
[font="Century Gothic"]The Bible is a collection of books; there are poetic books, historical books, prophetic books, evangelic books, etc.. Meaning, there are portions in the Bible that we have to take it literally.

About the "animal aren't gay, they don't feel love" statement, I already posted something making the clarification...[/font]
[quote name='Will' timestamp='1303253821' post='95895']
[font="Century Gothic"]I saw my mistake over there, but I meant with animals don't feel love that you can't use animals as an example of if the homosexuality is wrong or right. Plus, someone said that love is love and, based in this, how could homosexuality be bad then. Yes, it's a fact that animals have sex with another animals of same sex, but also they could "have sex" with some inanimated object. They do that due to their need to procreate and keep their species; no because they feel attached. Therefore, the "gay animals thing" is irrelevant in this topic. [/font][/quote]
Anyways...

[quote]Now, this being said, you could have been gay just as easily as you are straight. It all depends on the born ingredients and the environment. [/quote]
[font="Century Gothic"]That's conflicting. You're saying that x could be A as easily as x could be B, but then you say it all depends on the born ingredients and the environment. That only can be true if there were the same amount of chance of being gay or heterosexual, in an environment that rejects gays, for moral, religious or biological (living things feel the need to preserve their species).[/font]
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[quote name='wheneverythingfalls' timestamp='1315312994' post='155327']
This is a conversation that will never mix. Can me small minded or what ever I don't really mind.
To but it simply, I cant explain it, some Christian may be able to say what I'm trying to but I'm incapable.
People get too caught up in science, God created us, He is outside of all comprehension. He is indescribable as it says countless times in the bible. I cant tell you how it works because I'm not God and will never ever be close to what He is.
More people than not do take the bible as a literal book because of one thing, they have experienced God and that's something you cant ever record, recreate, test or scientifically prove.
If you want to say that is rubbish and they haven't experienced God and its all in their head or placebo or something else I ask, explain the power of the Holy Spirit, explain why its power has brought me to my knees and lead me to tears. Explain what I felt when I was baptized. Explain where my 65yr old Nana gets and maintains her faith from even after close to 40yrs of being in a wheelchair. Explain how my Dad has heard demons screaming due to the power of God.
You cant use science to prove God wrong, you can use it to try cover Him up. But there is no way you can prove the Holy Spirit false.

That ramble may seem off topic or stupid, but what I'm saying is people call the bible a book that isn't literal or is metaphorical only because they haven't experienced God. Yes a lot of it does seem utterly ridiculous! like Samson ripping a lion in half. But if you spend one minute in the presence of God and you'll understand it. Again, it sounds closed minded or stupid but its the only way anyone can fully understand it.
That's why I believe what I believe about homosexuality. I've felt God, I'm not profit or saint or anything but its, again, indescribable.

You may view me as the thickest Christian in the world after reading this, but I say this.
Can you really make a decision on what you believe if you have never felt God? Can you make a fair call by sitting back and thinking "That sounds utterly rubbish, God cant bring dead people back to life" and never attempt to see if its right? Its like deciding you don't like Salmon without ever having tasted it.
[/quote]
One thing is to [b]experiance[/b] God or a God and another is to take a book that was written 1000s of years ago literally. I have felt God. Or a God. I think my God and Goddess are the same as your God. They are all one God. One entity. I think it foolish to [b]hate[/b] and [b]discriminate[/b] people based on who they [b]love[/b].

I don't feel that God would be that [b]petty[/b] not to except all of his [b]children[/b]. Whether they be black, white, gay, straight, bisexual, Asian, Latino, tall, short, fat, thin, Transsexual, Transgendered, etc...

I don't understand the close-minded mind set.

And people don't get "caught" up in science. Science has proof that religion cannot offer us.

[quote name='Will' timestamp='1315326490' post='155373']
[font="Century Gothic"]The Bible is a collection of books; there are poetic books, historical books, prophetic books, evangelic books, etc.. Meaning, there are portions in the Bible that we have to take it literally.[/quote]
The things to take literally are the historical values that are located in the Bible that we have found to be slightly true. Such as the gospels which are located in the New Testament. Other than that as you have pointed out the Bible is mostly tales to make people more obedient or to give them some kind of relief. However you most certainly cannot believe that a man can live to be 500 or that you can never get a divorce or any of those things. If you do not follow every rule but follow others, then that is what I call being hypercritical. Saying homosexuality is wrong and not reading where Paul said it wasn't wrong but only unclean is just ... I don't know. I don't want to insult anyone. Just know there is contraindication in the book because it was written by [b]men[/b]. Many different men over a vast period of time. The stories are mostly legend and folklore much like ancient Greece myth. At one time they believed it and what's to say there aren't many Gods? We won't know. But if something is so wrong. If two people can love each other without any harm done.. why is it so wrong?

[quote]About the "animal aren't gay, they don't feel love" statement, I already posted something making the clarification...[/font]

Anyways...[/quote]
That doesn't make sense. Animals do feel love. There are parrots that mate for life. Obvisouly you don't know much about animal behavior. I'm sorry but it's the truth. :\ Again, I don't mean to insult anyone but... Parrots are one of the animals that mate for life. Once they find a pairing, that's there mate. They do things like hug, kiss, embrace each other, hunt together... if you can't see that as a relationship then I dunno what to tell you.


[quote][font="Century Gothic"]That's conflicting. You're saying that x could be A as easily as x could be B, but then you say it all depends on the born ingredients and the environment. That only can be true if there were the same amount of chance of being gay or heterosexual, in an environment that rejects gays, for moral, religious or biological (living things feel the need to preserve their species).[/font]
[/quote]
If a child is brought up in a home where homosexuality is looked down upon and he had [b]subconsciously[/b] made that choice don't you think it would be hard for him to live in that household? If someone was born with the biological tendency to be left handed and made the subconscious choice but wanted to play guitar don't you think it would be harder for him then for someone who was right handed? What I speak of is a theory and a psychology biological experiment that was done.

There have been experiments of how [b]scent[/b] is what attracts us to a mate among other things. We are animals my dear.

I don't understand why you press hate on someone who is just different. That is NOT what Jesus wanted. Correct? Edited by wunderbar
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[quote name='wunderbar' timestamp='1315766170' post='156772']
That doesn't make sense. Animals do feel love. There are parrots that mate for life. Obvisouly you don't know much about animal behavior. I'm sorry but it's the truth. :\ Again, I don't mean to insult anyone but... Parrots are one of the animals that mate for life. Once they find a pairing, that's there mate. They do things like hug, kiss, embrace each other, hunt together... if you can't see that as a relationship then I dunno what to tell you.[/quote]
[font="Century Gothic"]Animals don't feel love. Instead of judging people, show me proofs you're right. Parrots are one of the animals that mate for life? So what? Is that love? It isn't. Parrots, as many other birds, have to migrate constantly, raise their childs and establish territories; so the act of attracting mates would be lost time. They don't have only one mate because of love, they do because it's the way they can keep their offspring. [/font]

[quote name='wunderbar' timestamp='1315766170' post='156772']If a child is brought up in a home where homosexuality is looked down upon and he had [b]subconsciously[/b] made that choice don't you think it would be hard for him to live in that household? If someone was born with the biological tendency to be left handed and made the subconscious choice but wanted to play guitar don't you think it would be harder for him then for someone who was right handed? What I speak of is a theory and a psychology biological experiment that was done.[/quote]
[font="Century Gothic"]I don't know if it's because my english is not that good or it's not, but I don't see a connection of what I said and what you said. [/font]

[quote name='wunderbar' timestamp='1315766170' post='156772']I don't understand why you press hate on someone who is just different. That is NOT what Jesus wanted. Correct?[/quote]
[font="Century Gothic"]No one has said we hate homosexuals.[/font]

[quote name='wunderbar' timestamp='1315766170' post='156772']The things to take literally are the historical values that are located in the Bible that we have found to be slightly true. Such as the gospels which are located in the New Testament. Other than that as you have pointed out the Bible is mostly tales to make people more obedient or to give them some kind of relief. However you most certainly cannot believe that a man can live to be 500 or that you can never get a divorce or any of those things. If you do not follow every rule but follow others, then that is what I call being hypercritical. Saying homosexuality is wrong and not reading where Paul said it wasn't wrong but only unclean is just ... I don't know. I don't want to insult anyone. Just know there is contraindication in the book because it was written by men. Many different men over a vast period of time. The stories are mostly legend and folklore much like ancient Greece myth. At one time they believed it and what's to say there aren't many Gods? We won't know. [/quote]
[font="Century Gothic"]Well, that paragraph is interesting. Not because I'm in an awkward position, but I thought you knew about the Bible at least a little.
- There are proof that the history in the Bible is actually real, not tales (history of Judea, the Kings, Egypt, existence of the prophets).
- People lived more than 500 years in that time (Genesis); but the Bible isn't the only book that claims people lived that long, you can find several secular books in several acient culture. But why people lived that long? Note the factors that shorten the life span of men (climate and disease mostly), at the time (again, the time of Genesis) the world was young, the climate was almost perfect and there weren't much diseases. In addition, man's life span is gradually declining, and you know that.
- There's not contraindications in the Bible. If you claim there is, maybe you have to consider the time factor and the concept factor.

BY THE WAY! I like your signature picture xD[/font] Edited by Will
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[font="Century Gothic"]No one has said we hate homosexuals.[/font]

This is actually an interesting point (and a true one, as well). Most Christians don't hate gay people. They may disapprove because the Bible says contrarily, but I think (and truly hope) that if most Christians practice the way God tells us, we won't hate anyone because God does not hate anyone. In my personal belief, I also think it's not up to us to judge someone - only something greater can do that.

[font="Century Gothic"]
- There are proof that the history in the Bible is actually real, not tales (history of Judea, the Kings, Egypt, existence of the prophets).
- People lived more than 500 years in that time (Genesis); but the Bible isn't the only book that claims people lived that long, you can find several secular books in several acient culture. But why people lived that long? Note the factors that shorten the life span of men (climate and disease mostly), at the time (again, the time of Genesis) the world was young, the climate was almost perfect and there weren't much diseases. In addition, man's life span is gradually declining, and you know that.
- There's not contraindications in the Bible. If you claim there is, maybe you have to consider the time factor and the concept factor.
[/font]
[/quote]

I love your post about the history, will! Learning about the history of the Bible and the context from when Jesus lived is really interesting to me.
You're right, there's a lot that happens in the Bible that ACTUALLY did happen. I think the thing that people forget is that the Bible is a conglomeration of works - there are a TON of different authors who were writing from different time periods. Obviously things are going to get a little bit screwy if someone reads straight through - it just doesn't make sense. As Will said, it's important to consider who was writing and over the period of time that it was being written. The Bible is a very interesting piece of literature, along with being a holy book. :)
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[quote name='Will' timestamp='1315790583' post='156869']
[font="Century Gothic"]Animals don't feel love. Instead of judging people, show me proofs you're right. Parrots are one of the animals that mate for life? So what? Is that love? It isn't. Parrots, as many other birds, have to migrate constantly, raise their childs and establish territories; so the act of attracting mates would be lost time. They don't have only one mate because of love, they do because it's the way they can keep their offspring. [/font][/quote]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4710000/newsid_4710500/4710580.stm
http://eulogysite.com/Articles/Eulogy-Site/Animals_Show_Us_How_to_Love-79.html
http://kidscientist.com/33/why-are-humans-animals/
http://www.skeptictank.org/animals.htm
Affection is love. Humans show the same thing that parrots do. The word "love" is nothing more than chemicals and genetic instinct. Humans are animals. We are primates. What makes you think we are any better than other animals?

I have more sites if you so desire them. I also have about 10 years experience working with animals to back up my knowledge. In fact, at the moment, I'm working on a book about animal behavior and social interactions. And I do have a spiritual side since I'm Pagan. Animals have souls. All of us do. We are connected to earth. So, that being said, it's not as if I am completely hiding behind science and behavior.

[quote][font="Century Gothic"]I don't know if it's because my english is not that good or it's not, but I don't see a connection of what I said and what you said. [/font][/quote]
Perhaps it is your English then. Where are you from?


[quote][font="Century Gothic"]No one has said we hate homosexuals.[/font][/quote]
Taking away rights of those who need them and saying they do not have love or souls is showing hate. You do not need to say it. Actions speak louder than words.


[quote][font="Century Gothic"]Well, that paragraph is interesting. Not because I'm in an awkward position, but I thought you knew about the Bible at least a little.
- There are proof that the history in the Bible is actually real, not tales (history of Judea, the Kings, Egypt, existence of the prophets).
- People lived more than 500 years in that time (Genesis); but the Bible isn't the only book that claims people lived that long, you can find several secular books in several acient culture. But why people lived that long? Note the factors that shorten the life span of men (climate and disease mostly), at the time (again, the time of Genesis) the world was young, the climate was almost perfect and there weren't much diseases. In addition, man's life span is gradually declining, and you know that.
- There's not contraindications in the Bible. If you claim there is, maybe you have to consider the time factor and the concept factor.[/font][/quote]
The Bible was a history book/story book for it's time. Religion (even my own Religion) was an old science. It was a way for ancient man to figure the world out. Do I think that science and religion can live in harmony? Yes, of course.
The Bible is not 100% real such as the stories of Pagans and the Celtics. They are meant to teach not condemn.

Also, here are some sites with lists to contradictions in the Bible.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/merrit01.html

When these are pointed out people hide behind "it's not to be taken literally" but when we have conversations about homosexual all of the sudden it should be taken literally. Is there no middle ground here?

No one can say they live by the Bible. It's not possible.

[quote]BY THE WAY! I like your signature picture xD[/font]
[/quote]
Thank you. XD

[quote name='Karen' timestamp='1315879980' post='157048']This is actually an interesting point (and a true one, as well). Most Christians don't hate gay people. They may disapprove because the Bible says contrarily, but I think (and truly hope) that if most Christians practice the way God tells us, we won't hate anyone because God does not hate anyone. In my personal belief, I also think it's not up to us to judge someone - only something greater can do that.[/quote]
You can disagree on what color looks best on a couch but to disagree about someone's love life and nature is just cruel. :\ I'm sorry. I don't think it's right and I think it's a sign of hate. So called disagreeing with someone's love and rights causes hatred.


[quote]I love your post about the history, will! Learning about the history of the Bible and the context from when Jesus lived is really interesting to me.
You're right, there's a lot that happens in the Bible that ACTUALLY did happen. I think the thing that people forget is that the Bible is a conglomeration of works - there are a TON of different authors who were writing from different time periods. Obviously things are going to get a little bit screwy if someone reads straight through - it just doesn't make sense. As Will said, it's important to consider who was writing and over the period of time that it was being written. The Bible is a very interesting piece of literature, along with being a holy book. :)
[/quote]
The Bible is a book written by men who were trying to explain the world around them by telling tales. Some of what was written (as I said beforehand such as the Gospels) are accounts that may have happened. There's no telling for sure but it is interesting history.



My main point is:
You cannot use a book to hide behind "disagreeing" with someone's nature. Live and let live. It's no one's place to tell someone how to love. Edited by wunderbar
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I'm sorry for the double post (perhaps a mod could incorporate this into my other post?) but this might make people think twice about "disagreeing" with homosexuality:

[img]http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrzxldWoOv1r2v2rfo1_500.gif[/img]
"Jamey took his own life on Saturday, he was being bullied for being Gay for years. Jamey was found dead outside his home Sunday morning, but Amherst police would not release any details on how he killed himself. Students had been posting hate comments with gay references on his Formspring account, “JAMIE IS STUPID, GAY, FAT ANND UGLY. HE MUST DIE!” one post said. Another read, “I wouldn’t care if you died. No one would. So just do it :) It would make everyone WAY more happier!” Now that Jamey’s gone, no one’s happier. May you rest in Paradise, Jamey. You deserve it. You’re definitely missed, by plenty. By strangers, by family, by relatives, by friends, by people you may have never known. Paws up forever."
-from Tumblr (and Twitter, yes he was a Lady Gaga fan)

Is that what God wants? Really? Does he want these kids bullied and killing themselves? It all stems from religion that breeds hatred. When a mother tells her child that being gay is wrong what do you think that kid is going to do to another child who is gay? It's sad and disgusting. Anyone who thinks someone should die for being gay should be ashamed of themselves. Anyone who thinks these kids are mislead, leading a lie or not right in God's eyes should be ashamed. If God is that cruel and petty then I rather not follow Him. Edited by wunderbar
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