Exorcism

[Arie]

It makes sense, from what I have read it seems that Judaism focuses a lot on personal responsibility and taking things onto one's self. It's an interesting concept, like instead of placing blame or a lot of dependence on God, there is that personal factor as well.

 

Dina, you need to calm down. I understand that both you and Arie's beliefs are pretty firmly grounded, but please be open and respectful to new ideas.

 

It is important to understand what Arie said: the soul is everything. I suppose in the Christian religions, it's pretty up there in terms of importance too, especially because that, and not our physical bodies, is what will be going to the afterlife. It is really interesting to see the differences in between the afterlife, but honestly I have no idea how this turned into a discussion over heaven and hell and all of that lol.

 

Lets bring it back to topic, shall we?

 

Karen, I apologize if I did anything wrong in this thread! I am so sorry if i caused any issues. I do try to be respectful, but I know sometimes I get carried away. I don't want to make your job hard Hun.

 

Also, I was so happy to read what you wrote because you totally get it! Makes me excited because I not only explained it well but you support me. Idk, it's just really cheered me up to read how open and understanding. Love you girl!!!

[I am Not Purple]

Im sorry but Im on karen's side

You're being totally off topic picking sides like that. It's not a game. If you have something valid to say, sure. But thats just provocation.

Edited May 17, 2011 by I am Not Purple

[flying kiwi]

Yeah i agree but when you look deep into wht they do you start to think that maybe Faith healers are a big scam. Likei have said.the program -mircles for sale explains a lot.

Even if it is real people have died from not taking medicine and been blamed for not recovering because they didnt have enoug faith or give enough money.

 

I saw that program your topic is about and I agree faith healers are a load of rubbish. However this topic isn't about faith healers, although faith healers may perform 'exorcisms' its not only them that do them, priests and other religious leaders do, ones who do not specialize in faith healing. I'm not saying that they're real or not, but some people who perform exorcisms could be the real deal.

If anything maybe they could come of use to people who believe they have a demon in them, but actually don't, if you can get them to believe the demon is gone then that can't be bad.

I do know what your saying about people not taking medication, but people who have exorcisms have them because of demons, I'm not an expert but I haven't heard of anyone thinking that a disease is a demon, usually if it is a medical problem it is a mental one and not a physical one. In which case depending on what the mental condition is, like I said before, making the person believe its been cured might actually work.

However, I'm more on the side of its a load of rubbish, plus it could be dangerous, I'm not sure how true it is, but it probably is, but people have died during them, not due to not taking medication because they believe they're cured but because the exorcism itself has gone too far.

[Arie]

I do know what your saying about people not taking medication, but people who have exorcisms have them because of demons, I'm not an expert but I haven't heard of anyone thinking that a disease is a demon, usually if it is a medical problem it is a mental one and not a physical one. In which case depending on what the mental condition is, like I said before, making the person believe its been cured might actually work.

However, I'm more on the side of its a load of rubbish, plus it could be dangerous, I'm not sure how true it is, but it probably is, but people have died during them, not due to not taking medication because they believe they're cured but because the exorcism itself has gone too far.

 

I definitely agree with one of the points you are making here. If people are stopping to take medications, then this is dangerous thing. I am very concerned about this. Excuse my ignorance, but is this common? Are there really people who have stopped taking medication and instead turn to exorcism. For example, one about someone with depression or anxiety. My experience with these issues is that medication and therapy are the cure. I know a girl who would have committed suicide if it weren't for the medication and therapy she had. So I guess my concern is that a person my turn to exorcism as an ulturnative approach. And while it may work for some people, what about if it doesn't work? Again, excuse my ignorance but are their really people out there who are earning others to turn away from medication and towards exorcism? It just seems to risky to me.

[Emmas Friend]

How can you tell if someone is mentally ill, or is possessed by a demon/evil spirit ?

[Karen]

Ok you both need to stop. You can't just bump in a convo saying "calm down" everytime people are having different opinions. It's embarrassing, you make people feel like they're uncivilised.

 

And pardon me but i have to ask where exactly did you see that i wasn't calm? Because i highlighted a sentence? I only highlighted the sentence because Arie kept mentioning the whole demon thing and i thought she couldn't understand my point. I was perfectly calm during the entire convo, just wanted to make myself more clear because my English skills aren't the best.

 

And Karen two things: 1) I know you have this urge to play it peacemaker, but telling people "you need to calm down", while they are perfectly calm, upsets them more.

And 2) where did you exactly see that i was being closed and disrespectful to new ideas?? Where exactly, point it out because that mere statement is extremely offensive. I am tolerant, i was just asking her! Show me that very sentence where i was disrespectful.

 

I don't know how you can sense a tone that it doesn't exist. From no on i guess i have to use smilies or a little note saying "i am not calm" in the end of my statements.

 

Dina, I am sorry if I mistook your tone for getting agitated or upset with other people's opinions. I didn't mean to offend you, but I do take offense at your tone now. I'm sorry you're angry, and I'm sorry if I offended you by telling you to calm down earlier, but at this point in time, with this response, I can tell you're angry, and I do not appreciate it in the thread. The sarcasm does not work to resolve the problem. If you have an issue, please message me and we will talk about it and settle it.

 

 

Karen, I apologize if I did anything wrong in this thread! I am so sorry if i caused any issues. I do try to be respectful, but I know sometimes I get carried away. I don't want to make your job hard Hun.

 

Also, I was so happy to read what you wrote because you totally get it! Makes me excited because I not only explained it well but you support me. Idk, it's just really cheered me up to read how open and understanding. Love you girl!!!

 

I'm glad I get it Arie, hahaha. I always try to make an effort to understand where other people are coming from. And no, you didn't do anything wrong. No one is to blame here and I think it is a shame that such an agreement broke out on a thread.

 

Dina, you are right that I play the role of a peacemaker and I'm sorry if you see it as a negative thing. However, as a moderator being a peacemaker and solving conflict is my job. This is especially important in this forum because religion and the including subjects can be very touchy to talk about. I want to dispel conflict before it occurs and settle it as peacefully as possible when it does occur. I am a peacemaker because I want this to be a place where everyone can express their opinions safely and respectfully and without fear of harassment or anything of the sort onto their opinion. I do realize that because this is religion there will be a lot of conflict because everyone has their own beliefs.

 

If anyone has an issue, they can message me directly and we will talk.

 

As of now, there will be no more discussion about this on the thread. This is about exorcism and the theories surrounding that. Again, any issues: message me.

[Kim.]

Karen, I apologize if I did anything wrong in this thread! I am so sorry if i caused any issues. I do try to be respectful, but I know sometimes I get carried away. I don't want to make your job hard Hun.

 

Also, I was so happy to read what you wrote because you totally get it! Makes me excited because I not only explained it well but you support me. Idk, it's just really cheered me up to read how open and understanding. Love you girl!!!

 

After reading through the whole thread, I honestly don't think anyone did anything wrong. Things were said, and it became a heated argument which is natural in a debate-type of environment. It can get more than heated, though, which is why "calm down" was suggested. It helps nip things in the bud before anything gets any worse. It's a basic preventive measure as a forum moderator to incite.

 

By the way, I do like the idea of the significance placed on the soul in Judaism. I don't have a set of complex beliefs, as I've stated before. I draw from multiple sources, so therefore my beliefs are semi-fluid and not completely concrete and firm. I'm a big proponent of remaining progressive in a constantly changing society. Doesn't mean for me, though, that I will ever state that murder is ever right. (I digress.)

 

Now, I have a question for you. I will continue with the "demon" conversation to raise a few questions, because I am curious. The general idea of a "demon", in literature (maybe not completely in religious stature), is that it is a metaphor for a sort of "evil" within you. "Evil" is such an ambiguous word. "Evil" can be something you (not you, Arie, but other people too) are struggling with internally, as you are fighting against, or repelling, a side you have dissonance with.

 

A "demon" can be unresolved issues within a person, extreme depression, anxiety, you name it. Issues that impact your life physically. It offers the idea that the "soul" is tainted. So, I am assuming, in theory that an exorcism may be a "necessary" symbolic act to drive out an inner force that is interpreted as wrecking turmoil within the soul, if the soul is a sacred part of life in which your body is a vessel merely holding that soul?

 

I tend to think in circles, so I apologize if any of my sentences were confusing. .

 

If anything maybe they could come of use to people who believe they have a demon in them, but actually don't, if you can get them to believe the demon is gone then that can't be bad.

I do know what your saying about people not taking medication, but people who have exorcisms have them because of demons, I'm not an expert but I haven't heard of anyone thinking that a disease is a demon, usually if it is a medical problem it is a mental one and not a physical one. In which case depending on what the mental condition is, like I said before, making the person believe its been cured might actually work.

However, I'm more on the side of its a load of rubbish, plus it could be dangerous, I'm not sure how true it is, but it probably is, but people have died during them, not due to not taking medication because they believe they're cured but because the exorcism itself has gone too far.

 

Well, maybe I shouldn't be posting in this thread if I offer faith in a contextual relation to science.

 

As far as I know and understand, a priest (in the context of the Roman Catholic church) performs an exorcism. What I speculate is that in religion and faith-based belief, any extremely negative disease or condition affecting the body is considered a demon. Anyone agree with me in my statement or can call me out on it? So, for instance, if a person is deemed "posessed" and their eyes start to roll backwards, they shake or tremor, or speak in tongues they are "possessed". Yes?

 

All those symptoms are not common in day-to-day life, but they can range from body conditions such as seizures, to full-on nearly irrepairative psychoses. Mental conditions or medical problems do affect the body physically, though, I believe.

 

Mmm, quick story: My mother, when she was in her 20's, had a girl friend she hung out with. In order to "lose" weight, they were prescribed medication that I am pretty sure is not even legal to use anymore. Her friend continued consuming and consuming these pills without regard to doseage amounts. She got sick, lost extreme amounts of weight, and was confined to a bed. Upon visit to the doctor, she was diagnosed with a failing liver and stated she had less than six months to live.

 

She wound up going into shock at one point, when my mother was over her house and my mother ran to grab the phone for help. The woman's family snatched the phone cord from the wall and sternly glared at my mother. According to the family (who was Roman Catholic), their daughter was posessed by a demon or some sort of evil. They brought over either a faith healer, or a priest (can't remember which), and performed an exorcism. My mother's friend died not long after.

 

I wouldn't recommend ceasing medication because it's interpreted as bad, so I agree with you Donna. Could be really dangerous and make situations worse.

 

I definitely agree with one of the points you are making here. If people are stopping to take medications, then this is dangerous thing. I am very concerned about this. Excuse my ignorance, but is this common? Are there really people who have stopped taking medication and instead turn to exorcism. So I guess my concern is that a person my turn to exorcism as an ulturnative approach. And while it may work for some people, what about if it doesn't work? Again, excuse my ignorance but are their really people out there who are earning others to turn away from medication and towards exorcism? It just seems to risky to me.

 

That's my concern, too, Arie. And you are not ignorant. I am sure it has happened and is common in certain parts of the world where there are stronger beliefs in faith over medicine.

Some people do view exorcism as an alternative approach to therapy and/or medication.

-----

 

Next question I have:

 

If some religious people fully believe in the (positive) effects of a successful exorcism, how do all of you view people who consider themselves existentialists, atheists, or transcendentalists? Would any of these labels be considered to carry a connotation (meaning) of being "posessed" to begin with? Are non-believers, and dis-believers, and people who believe there is nothing for them, or who believe purely in emotion, are those who should be exorcised?

 

(Guys, I do not believe that people who are of any of these faiths should be exorcised. I DO NOT believe this, but I'm just wondering about a situation such as this. Neither do I really believe in exorcism )

 

Also, does anyone implicitly believe that anyone who does not believe in exorcism is on the "other side", a side to be against?

 

I apologize for my length. I don't know much about exorcism. I just philosophize and speculate.

[i love emma]

I saw that program your topic is about and I agree faith healers are a load of rubbish. However this topic isn't about faith healers, although faith healers may perform 'exorcisms' its not only them that do them, priests and other religious leaders do, ones who do not specialize in faith healing. I'm not saying that they're real or not, but some people who perform exorcisms could be the real deal.

If anything maybe they could come of use to people who believe they have a demon in them, but actually don't, if you can get them to believe the demon is gone then that can't be bad.

I do know what your saying about people not taking medication, but people who have exorcisms have them because of demons, I'm not an expert but I haven't heard of anyone thinking that a disease is a demon, usually if it is a medical problem it is a mental one and not a physical one. In which case depending on what the mental condition is, like I said before, making the person believe its been cured might actually work.

However, I'm more on the side of its a load of rubbish, plus it could be dangerous, I'm not sure how true it is, but it probably is, but people have died during them, not due to not taking medication because they believe they're cured but because the exorcism itself has gone too far.

 

 

Thank you someone actually agrees - they kinda intertwine in my beliefs - but i see you point

[Lady Deadpool]

Now, I have a question for you. I will continue with the "demon" conversation to raise a few questions, because I am curious. The general idea of a "demon", in literature (maybe not completely in religious stature), is that it is a metaphor for a sort of "evil" within you. "Evil" is such an ambiguous word. "Evil" can be something you (not you, Arie, but other people too) are struggling with internally, as you are fighting against, or repelling, a side you have dissonance with.

 

A "demon" can be unresolved issues within a person, extreme depression, anxiety, you name it. Issues that impact your life physically. It offers the idea that the "soul" is tainted. So, I am assuming, in theory that an exorcism may be a "necessary" symbolic act to drive out an inner force that is interpreted as wrecking turmoil within the soul, if the soul is a sacred part of life in which your body is a vessel merely holding that soul?

 

I agree with that. A demon isn't a scary devilish thing with teeth and tails lol. A demon is something evil within us. An addiction, a fault that we can but won't agree to change, won't agree to improve because it gives us guilty pleasure-- if that makes any sense. There are a thousands of demons, some bigger some smaller, if i can use that term. For instance, some religions consider alcohol and the addiction to smoking to be "demon". That's all metaphorically, but what actually happens when it becomes physical? When a person is really possessed? And how it happens, and why it happens to this specific person? That i have no idea about. I have the same question actually. From what i've heard it usually happens to people who involve themselves with witchcraft and satanism.

 

 

But an exorcism is far more different than a symbolic act that helps you get rid of your inner problems when your soul is tainted. It's not like meditation or something. I mean i can't really describe it, when you see one you'll understand. I've only heard stories --which i am not gonna share here. It's like you lose control of your soul, you're in constant pain and fear and in a really hard-to-win fight. You don't have control of your thoughts, or your body.

 

I also would like to know what happens to the souls that were possessed but didn't manage to be exorcised when that person dies.

 

 

 

 

As far as I know and understand, a priest (in the context of the Roman Catholic church) performs an exorcism. What I speculate is that in religion and faith-based belief, any extremely negative disease or condition affecting the body is considered a demon. Anyone agree with me in my statement or can call me out on it? So, for instance, if a person is deemed "posessed" and their eyes start to roll backwards, they shake or tremor, or speak in tongues they are "possessed". Yes?

 

All those symptoms are not common in day-to-day life, but they can range from body conditions such as seizures, to full-on nearly irrepairative psychoses. Mental conditions or medical problems do affect the body physically, though, I believe.

As i said somewhere above, the physical symptoms ressembles the epilepsy symptoms. But there are far more other symptoms. And doctors understand that easily. It's just that some of them prefer to consider this as symptoms to a rare illness that is yet to be discovered rather than a case of possession.

 

If some religious people fully believe in the (positive) effects of a successful exorcism, how do all of you view people who consider themselves existentialists, atheists, or transcendentalists? Would any of these labels be considered to carry a connotation (meaning) of being "posessed" to begin with? Are non-believers, and dis-believers, and people who believe there is nothing for them, or who believe purely in emotion, are those who should be exorcised?

 

(Guys, I do not believe that people who are of any of these faiths should be exorcised. I DO NOT believe this, but I'm just wondering about a situation such as this. Neither do I really believe in exorcism )

 

Also, does anyone implicitly believe that anyone who does not believe in exorcism is on the "other side", a side to be against?

lol no religion does not consider any of the above to be possessed. Not even the hardcore religious people have ever claimed that. That would be an absurd theory. As i said above being possessed is something totally different. Has nothing to do with how much faith you have, or how religious you are, or how wrong/right you are. It's really different. And no i don't think that if someone doesn't believe in exorcism is on an other side, a fault one. It's opinions and believes we're talking about. And this one in particular nowadays seems a bit hard to believe, even for religious people so i wouldn't blame someone for questioning it.

Edited May 18, 2011 by He is Not Purple

[Arie]

Now, I have a question for you. I will continue with the "demon" conversation to raise a few questions, because I am curious. The general idea of a "demon", in literature (maybe not completely in religious stature), is that it is a metaphor for a sort of "evil" within you. "Evil" is such an ambiguous word. "Evil" can be something you (not you, Arie, but other people too) are struggling with internally, as you are fighting against, or repelling, a side you have dissonance with.

 

A "demon" can be unresolved issues within a person, extreme depression, anxiety, you name it. Issues that impact your life physically. It offers the idea that the "soul" is tainted. So, I am assuming, in theory that an exorcism may be a "necessary" symbolic act to drive out an inner force that is interpreted as wrecking turmoil within the soul, if the soul is a sacred part of life in which your body is a vessel merely holding that soul?

 

I agree with that. A demon isn't a scary devilish thing with teeth and tails lol. A demon is something evil within us. An addiction, a fault that we can but won't agree to change, won't agree to improve because it gives us guilty pleasure-- if that makes any sense. There are a thousands of demons, some bigger some smaller, if i can use that term. For instance, some religions consider alcohol and the addiction to smoking to be "demon". That's all metaphorically, but what actually happens when it becomes physical? When a person is really possessed? And how it happens, and why it happens to this specific person? That i have no idea about. I have the same question actually. From what i've heard it usually happens to people who involve themselves with witchcraft and satanism.

 

 

But an exorcism is far more different than a symbolic act that helps you get rid of your inner problems when your soul is tainted. It's not like meditation or something. I mean i can't really describe it, when you see one you'll understand. I've only heard stories --which i am not gonna share here. It's like you lose control of your soul, you're in constant pain and fear and in a really hard-to-win fight. You don't have control of your thoughts, or your body.

 

 

I found this very interesting! Of course all of us have some sort of evil inclination within us. So here is my thoughts though. Does a person really need exorcism to over come those inclinations? My feelings are that every person is strong on their own and completely capable of overcoming that. We all fight those sort of feelings everyday. We all fight social pre assure everyday. So I guess this idea makes me nervous as well. I think it's important to stress that people can overcome these things on their own. For someone to turn to ex rosin instead seems to me like they just want the easier way out. Like, they don't want to try and overcome these things on their own. Everyone is more then capable to overcome this evil. I guess what I am saying is, I would hate for a person to think themselves as weak. I would hate for a person to think that they can't overcome this on their own. But most importantly, I would hate for someone to not even try. Then what happens if exorcism doesn't work? Does a person just give up and not try? I don't know. I just feel like exorcism should be the last option. We should be instead pushing people towards fighting and overcoming it themselves.

[i love emma]

I think to really believe I would have to witness an Exorcism.

If it could be for an addiction as mentioned above, surely this could just be solved by the power of suggestion ?

 

(2) _!Treasure!_

[Karen]

I love the idea that a demon is something within us. I agree with that, as we can be our own worst enemy sometimes. Being raised catholic, I was always taught (or rather, it was always implied) that there is good and evil and there are demons/angels to go along with it. it's kind of scary, especially for a kid. I'm not sure though. As dina said, evil resides within ourselves. I fully agree with that, but at the same time it's hard for me not to think that there isn't some type of physical being to go along with it, just because that was how i was raised.

[i love emma]

Question: Do they play music at public exorcisms ?

[Karen]

Question: Do they play music at public exorcisms ?

 

thats a great question! I would assume it would depend on the exorcism and the type of culture it is. For example, a catholic exorcism would never ever occur outside, but I think (unless I'm mistaken) it does in other countries such as some Asian countries. I think it all depends on the ritual.

[Bagel of Death]

One would think that nobody still believed in possession by demons since Hippocrates debunked that almost two millenia ago. Psychiatric disorders can be so frightening the sufferer feel like he/she is the thrall of a malevolent being.

[Emmas Friend]

How can you tell if someone is mentally ill, or is possessed by a demon/evil spirit ?

 

 

I've quoted my own post, Imagine if I went to the doctor, and told him I thought I had a demon inside me. I wonder what his answer would be ?

[Monkey Cartwheels]

I've quoted my own post, Imagine if I went to the doctor, and told him I thought I had a demon inside me. I wonder what his answer would be ?

I have no idea what they would say to be honest. If they believed in that stuff they would refer you to someone, if they didnt they would probably prescribe you some pills! haha

[Karen]

It can be so hard to be open minded in this time! I feel like it's a really big conflict for some people, especially christian teenagers, to believe in science and also believe in God. I think there are some things in this world that really cannot be explained, and exorcism and possession are some of them.

[Bagel of Death]

No, however the stories are interesting to hear. The majority of the cases I've heard/read turned out to be the victim had epilepsy, schizophrenia or some other mental disease. Claims of some individuals or relatively small groups of people who potentially interested in advertising their religion/philosophy don't count (in my opinion.)

 

Example: If searching for diet pills, you'll find that most "reviews" in style "I lost x amount of pounds with Such-and-Such slimming pill" and pictures "before and after", but actually these "reviews" are written by clones of people who make profit from sales. However, when you buy these pills you don't really see results.

 

Next example, ancient Mayan priests were able to calculate eclipse and then claimed it as "anger of gods". The conclusion was even existing fact could have totally different nature then claimed by priests.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Bagel of Death

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