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I disagree. The christian god supports and asks his followers to commit genocide against those of different belief systematically throughout the bible. As Judaism and Islam are not very different from Christianity, it would make sense to me if that was not different for them.

Systematically? Where? God may have said that He is the light and whoever follows me will be saved and all, but where does He encourage and ask for GENOCIDE?

Edited by Provehito In Altum
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Systematically? Where? God may have said that He is the light and whoever follows me will be saved and all, but where does He encourage and ask for GENOCIDE? And don't give me just Old Testament quotes.

 

I would like to fix my comment above and add to this. I have many Christain and Muslim friends who are expected ting of everyone around them. Dina being one of my Christain friends and I know she doesn't believe in this. Furthermore, I think I speak for all of us when I say we don't believe in a G-D who asks his followers to commit genocide against those of different beliefs. If we did, then me and Dina wouldn't be friends, would we?

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First and most important of all, why shouldn't I give Old Testament quotes. Is that invalid? Hell no, it isn't! Didn't Jesus say:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

- Matthew 5:17

 

The Old Testament is part of the bible, and I believe, of the scripture of Judaism. Why should half of the message 'not count'? Would that make creationism invalid? The exodus from Egypt?

 

In 2 Kings followers of a different god (Baal I believe) are slaughtered by some guy whose name I forgot. It was read to me quite recently when I was at a friend's.

 

And to the others he said in my hearing, Go ye through the city after him, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity; slay utterly the old man, the young man and the virgin, and little children and women; but come not near any man upon whom is the mark: and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the old men that were before the house. And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and smote in the city.

- Ezekiel 9:5-7

 

This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys. (...) Then Saul attacked the Amalekites all the way from Havilah to Shur, near the eastern border of Egypt. He took Agag king of the Amalekites alive, and all his people he totally destroyed with the sword.

- 1 Samuel 15:2-3, 7-8

 

And some real charming passages from Deuteronomy:

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. (...) If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

- Deuteronomy 6-10, 12-15

 

There are countless atrocities in the bible. I'm surprised you don't know them, really. Of course, the main problem we're dealing with here is fundamentalists who seemingly lack any comprehension of how humans should interact with eachother, but the fact that this kind of stuff is in the scripture, is quite undeniably disturbing. It shouldn't be there. And yet, it is there, in the world's most best selling book.

As for Judaism, I'll have to accept what you tell me, because I don't really know much about the Jewish beliefs.

Of course, I'm not saying anyone here is actually bringing these ideals into practice. That would be ridiculous, I have no evidence for that. On the contrary, I believe that religion actually unites people here and thus, helps build friendships. But it's not at all just sunny.

Edited by Majestic122
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First and most important of all, why shouldn't I give Old Testament quotes. Is that invalid? Hell no, it isn't! Didn't Jesus say:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

- Matthew 5:17

 

The Old Testament is part of the bible, and I believe, of the scripture of Judaism. Why should half of the message 'not count'? Would that make creationism invalid? The exodus from Egypt?

I said don't give me ONLY OT quotes. Because everyone only quotes OT for the "bad" stuff. Never the NT. Weird ha? And oh look, all your quotes are DUHN DUHNNN from the OT. Why isn't that surprising? Tch. I've said i don't quite accept the OT numerous times. There are quite a few things in there that i don not fully understand or accept. It seems weird to me in many parts. I've said before that the God of the OT doesn't seem a bit fair to me, and the quotes beneath you very carefully chose to use prove it. So i am not going to defend the OT, or the Quran where it says -i think- that Allah says that he who will split someone else's blood in his name will go to Heaven. Gimme NT quotes come on.

 

The OT, holy as it may be to numerous of people portrays a totally different era, describes things in a different way and is not to be taken literally. People who believe in God, have an understanding of love and equality, so yeah peace is what they want. You assumed above that Christians, and religious people in general don't want peace because their God demands them to commit genocide against people of different believes. It's your opinion to believe that, sadly enough. And my opinion to consider you ignorant.

 

 

There are countless atrocities in the bible. I'm surprised you don't know them, really. Of course, the main problem we're dealing with here is fundamentalists who seemingly lack any comprehension of how humans should interact with eachother, but the fact that this kind of stuff is in the scripture, is quite undeniably disturbing.

Yes of course, because i have to know the bible by heart. Sadly i'm surprised you only need to know the parts of the bible-or any other sacred book- you need so to accuse God, I'm sure you haven't even read the NT or the OT for that matter. Only the parts you want. You haven't read the parts that preach love, equality, understanding, hope, faith anything at all.

There will always be fanatics. In every religion and not only. Haven't you seen fanatic anti-religious/atheist people? Blaming religion/God for everything, judging ALL the religious people the same? It's undeniably disturbing.

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I don't have time to respond to this appropriately because I am on my phone at rehearsal. But, I suggest you guys take this conversation to the Religious Resource Forum. Its very interesting and there is a topic already for conversations on the holy books. I find this very interesting!

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I said don't give me ONLY OT quotes. Because everyone only quotes OT for the "bad" stuff. Never the NT. Weird ha? And oh look, all your quotes are DUHN DUHNNN from the OT. Why isn't that surprising? Tch. I've said i don't quite accept the OT numerous times.

The OT is still as much a valid part of the bible as the NT, whether you like it or not.

There are quite a few things in there that i don not fully understand or accept. It seems weird to me in many parts. I've said before that the God of the OT doesn't seem a bit fair to me, and the quotes beneath you very carefully chose to use prove it. So i am not going to defend the OT, or the Quran where it says -i think- that Allah says that he who will split someone else's blood in his name will go to Heaven.

Yeah, I agree. There's a load of wrong stuff in the OT. That the NT is much better (although "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword" still seems rather strange to me) I also agree on. But, if you do not accept the OT, do you accept creationism? Although modern science has proved that evolution is a totally viable and fitting theory, it remains an important piece in Christian dogma.

 

he OT, holy as it may be to numerous of people portrays a totally different era, describes things in a different way and is not to be taken literally.

Yes, I've heard this before. And I fully agree. It should not be taken literally. But phrases like the ones I have posted can't really be taken symbolically, either, can they? What's symbolical about killing people who believe differently? It's quite different from the principle "love your neighbour like yourself" (or however this translates into English), which is something I can agree on.

 

People who believe in God, have an understanding of love and equality, so yeah peace is what they want. You assumed above that Christians, and religious people in general don't want peace because their God demands them to commit genocide against people of different believes. It's your opinion to believe that, sadly enough. And my opinion to consider you ignorant.

I'm afraid you've quite misunderstood my message. I am not assuming that all religious people want to fight eachother because their god demands them to commit genocide. It is my belief that religion gives some people a window of opportunity, a reason to fight eachother, because their god demands them to commit genocide. As I've stated in my previous post, there are good things about religion and I acknowledge that.

 

 

Yes of course, because i have to know the bible by heart. Sadly i'm surprised you only need to know the parts of the bible-or any other sacred book- you need so to accuse God, I'm sure you haven't even read the NT or the OT for that matter. Only the parts you want. You haven't read the parts that preach love, equality, understanding, hope, faith anything at all.

You are grossly misunderstanding me again. I do not demand that you know the bible by heart. I merely stated my surprise at christians not knowing atrocious passages are in the bible. I was raised christian. I have been to christian elementary and high school. I don't, can't and won't claim that I know the bible very well, but of course I know that the bible preaches love and equality as well. As for understanding, I'm not so sure, but let's not go there. Those passages I of course support, but I think that they are basic 'rules of engagement', if you will, for developed civilizations, anyway.

 

 

 

There will always be fanatics. In every religion and not only. Haven't you seen fanatic anti-religious/atheist people? Blaming religion/God for everything, judging ALL the religious people the same? It's undeniably disturbing.

How lovely that you use my own words against me. But I'm afraid your argument is quite shallow compared to mine. The only thing I and the rest of the atheists on the world bring forward is words. It's kind of hard for a fanatic atheist to put into deeds anything that comes with atheism specifically, i.e. I don't believe in the existance of a deity, whereas fanatic religious people have been killing for their Gods for thousands of years. The worst you can get from a fanatic anti-religous type is a battered ego, the worst you can get from a fanatic religious type is death. It's not really comparable.

 

If you are referring to me, blaming religion for everything, I think and maintain that in (full circle-back to topic) the case of Israel and Palestine, the conflict still exists because of religious literalism.

Edited by Majestic122
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I'm not gonna fully respond to that^ because as Arie correctly said there is a whole other thread about this conversation. I'm just gonna answer to this because it's interesting:

I don't believe in the existance of a deity, whereas fanatic religious people have been killing for their Gods for thousands of years. The worst you can get from a fanatic anti-religous type is a battered ego, the worst you can get from a fanatic religious type is death. It's not really comparable.

 

If you are referring to me, blaming religion for everything, I think and maintain that in (full circle-back to topic) the case of Israel and Palestine, the conflict still exists because of religious literalism.

 

No. From the moment you believe in God, death of another human being from your hand is not an option. People just killed and kill in the name of God for thousands for years as an excuse for the lust for power and money. Crusades as an example. Anti-religios people, people in general that is, can kill for all kind of reasons, power and money being the most common ones.

 

Also I'm just gonna say that i thought you were generalizing about religious people in your previous comment, i didn't understand you referring to specific occasions. Ofc religion gives some people a window of opportunity to do horrible things. This happens throughout history. But should anyone blame religion for that? Or God? Trust me if it wasn't religion their excuse, they would find another one for their atrocious behaviour.

Edited by Provehito In Altum
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I'm not gonna fully respond to that^ because as Arie correctly said there is a whole other thread about this conversation. I'm just gonna answer to this because it's interesting:

Could you point me to that topic? I'd be interested to debate the topic further there.

 

No. From the moment you believe in God, death of another human being from your hand is not an option. People just killed and kill in the name of God for thousands for years as an excuse for the lust for power and money. Crusades as an example.

And yet the terrorists who attacked the World Trade Center believed in God. I doubt they were after power or money. They believed that if they killed as much heathens as possible, they would surely get rewarded by Allah and get a bunch of virgins in heaven. And weren't the Crusades organized to cleanse the holy land of the heathens (Saracens)? Even if it was power they were after, they maimed and killed in the name of their God, whose word they believe put into practice (because it's all there in the scripture) and were willing to die for.

Anti-religios people, people in general that is, can kill for all kind of reasons, power and money being the most common ones.

People in general do not equal anti-religious people. That's nonsense. Only 16% of the world's population is non-religious, half of which is theistic but non-religious1. Atheists account for only a fraction of this percentage. And atheists do generally not kill in name of their atheism - with the exception of the USSR under Stalin, a society flawed in many more areas. Then again, atheism doesn't have any scripture that commands you to kill.

Also I'm just gonna say that i thought you were generalizing about religious people in your previous comment, i didn't understand you referring to specific occasions. Ofc religion gives some people a window of opportunity to do horrible things. This happens throughout history. But should anyone blame religion for that? Or God? Trust me if it wasn't religion their excuse, they would find another one for their atrocious behaviour.

I'm sorry if my comments seemed unclear. And yeah, I think it is fair to put the blame on the religion for the existance of religious fanatics. Because there have been far little atheism-fueled attacks on innocent people than there have been religion-fueled.

 

1. Major religions ranked by size, http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html, retrieved February 2, 2012

Edited by Majestic122
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I'm going to pipe in here, real quick. I'll be honest: I have very strong spiritual convictions, and I have not voiced them in this particular forum. But, I've been watching the banter between groups of people that openly refer to themselves as Christians.

 

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

 

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.

 

We're all One, here guys. Everything else is just details. We, as Christians, agree on Jesus. We also agree with Arie on the worship of YHVH, I AM THAT I AM, the Father in Heaven. Let's be One.

 

And athiests: why fight so hard against something You don't believe in? Drop it, go Your way if that is what You truly believe. If You do not want Us to prosetlyze You, do not prosetlyze Us. I'll leave it at that. Much love to all of you. <3

 

~Revan

Edited by Revan
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And athiests: why fight so hard against something You don't believe in? Drop it, go Your way if that is what You truly believe. If You do not want Us to prosetlyze You, do not prosetlyze Us. I'll leave it at that. Much love to all of you. <3

Because religion seems to me more than believing. It hides behind holy laws to in some cases keep people from the truth (think of teaching creationism in school - something I think should be prohibited) and in other cases hinders progress (I'm aiming at the Catholic Church here. Forbidding condoms, for example, would not help preventing AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa). I want people to be able to see the facts, what we know is true. I want people to use their mind. Think critically of that which you were taught and that which is imposed on to you in every day life. I think that is very important.

I am not out to proselytize in this topic. I am here because I stated my opinion on the case why the conflict in Israel and Palestine endures. I have been defending my opinion since, answering questions of other posters and (attempting) refuting their arguments.

I do apologize for not noticing your post at the bottom of page four, Arie. I now have and I agree, let's continue there.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Things can't go on as they are in Israel! The Arabs need their own state!

 

I've been to Israel and the discrimination and unfairness that happened there every day made me want to SCREAM!

Doesn't the world see this injustice? You can't take aways their country without asking permission...you can't just tell them to go live somewhere else! Israel has been their home for a thousand years!!

 

I say it will be a long way until they will have peace in gaza. But creating a new state would be a start...although I'm sure they won't accept it without a fight if Jerusalem fell to the jews(which it certainly will).

 

Really, so much fuss about ONE CITY!! No one has a right to it, yet everyone has a right to it. Three great religions have their sacred places there and it wouldn't be fair to deny them access. It should belong to everyone...or no one!

Edited by Ophelia
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