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#41 130671

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 04:30 PM

Arie no one disputes that both sides have made grave errors in the past - but right now (or for some years), the only ones
who are taking land that is someone else's to build their homes on are the Israelis.
Or are there Palestinians somewhere coming onto pre-1967-borders israeli land, evicting them and building palestinian settlements?
If you want to have true negotiations, at some point you simply have to stop building. And you have to take the settlers out of there.

Arie would you want to enter into talks about buying a house that gets smaller and smaller and even looses its water&electricity while you're talking.....but you're still expected to pay the same price ? And you can't even decide yourself when you're going to move in ?

#42 Arie

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 04:45 PM

I have shocking news for you then. Palestinians may not be building settlements but its not like they haven't kicked people out of their homes. They are not innocent in this matter either. And here is the other thing. The israelis are living in terror because any day now all of them or the mojority of them can be forced out of their homes because of this issue we are discussing. So if they start building its because its all they have left. Its the only thing they can do to say israel is strong. But here is my main issue with your argument. You criticize the building yet you have no idea what that means. They don't kick people out of their homes. They set up settlements where no one else lives. I have been there I know. I have seen it. Its the middle of nowhere where they build. So no palestinians are being kicked out of their homes. Atleast not it mass quantities. I am not saying the bulding is okay. But its sort of the last thing they can do just to say hey we are still here and we want to survive. Also you critisize israelis for supossedly kicking out palestinians but what do you think is going to happen if a palestinian state were created. Tons of israelis will be forced out of their homes. It will be like gaza all over again. And is that fair? Its okay for israelis to get kicked out of their homes?

My point is just that there are so many different factors that need to be considered. Because it can't just be that one gains and the other looses. It can't.

And chris how would I feel? I will let you know if I am forced to give up my home in israel once again. We had a home in gaza but we all know how that went. So yes. I know exactly how it feels. Do you?

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#43 Rena

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 04:59 PM

I'm not trying to start a heated arguement, but i've lived in Palestine and the settlements are not in the middle of no where. The Israeli's have one of the largest and strongest armies in the world, so the Palestinans are also living in fear. I think that in this topic since we both think we are right its not going to solve anything and i respect your views. And i also agree that both sides are also violent. I hate that we've grown up to this and it will be aroud forever, i have a feeling that the jews and arabs will always dislike eachother and thats something i want to break.
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#44 Arie

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 06:12 PM

I agree!!! All I want is peace!! I have best friends who are arab and I am orthodox jew. If I can do it why can't more people?? Lol uch I wish!!! I want peace!!

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#45 Emmas Friend

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 09:34 PM

I should imagine that the vast majority of people on both sides want peace. Unfortunately there is a hardline element on both sides who won't budge an inch.
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#46 azlan

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 03:50 PM

Just a quick point to bear in mind for the people who are accusing the Palestinians of being ruled by terrorists, if you were living in a situation where you're entire country has effectively been dismantled and occupied by a force that hasn't lived natively in the area since the Roman empire ejected them, and it has been your historical homeland throughout the Ottoman Empire, to have all that taken away within more or less one lifespan, could you honestly say you would do anything different?

And also consider the situation in Ireland, which actually has quite a few similarities, revolving around statehood intrinsically tied to religion (Loyalists and republicans), and you will find that in order to make any progress towards a peaceful, stable future, it is necessary to all sides to be willing to compromise, and to tackle the issue of terrorism, as well as aggressive militarism from the occupational force with equal vigour, and accept that there will always be a hard-core on both sides that will not be satisfied with any kind of compromise, but the majority of people simply wish to be able to live a normal life, in peace and safety.

The issue of how Israel has acted as a state towards its neighbours, and existing inhabitants since its (artificial) inception however would get a much much more scathing post from me.

#47 Lady Deadpool

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 04:07 PM

I'm sorry to interrupt, i support both sides, but i just wanted to ask why does everyone keep saying about Palestinians being there before Roman Empire, or since Ottoman empire and all? Is that a valid point? Because if so then half of the world should be Greek now? I mean all the Balcans including Turkey should belong to Greece if you remember the Byzantine Empire, or Alexander the Great had occupied parts of India, maybe these parts belong to the Greeks too? Let's be serious.

Since 1922 Greece owned the coast of Asia minor, and they were kicked out by the Ottomans and an incredible man slaughtering a genocide happened and now all those places that belonged to us through ancient times until then, now belong to the Turks and i haven't seen anyone protesting and killing each other saying this land rightfully belong to us.

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#48 azlan

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 04:21 PM

I'm sorry to interrupt, i support both sides, but i just wanted to ask why does everyone keep saying about Palestinians being there before Roman Empire, or since Ottoman empire and all? Is that a valid point? Because if so then half of the world should be Greek now? I mean all the Balcans including Turkey should belong to Greece if you remember the Byzantine Empire, or Alexander the Great had occupied parts of India, maybe these parts belong to the Greeks too? Let's be serious.


Let me clarify what I meant, I was simply pointing out that under *any* occupation of land, there will always be resistance, especially when the occupiers effectively subjugate the Indigenous (or at least in recent history before the occupation took place) peoples, and especially as much of the conflict and proprietorial occupation took place within what could legitimately termed as 'living memory', it is natural that there is a large amount of anger in the population, and as they lack powerful international allies on the same scale as the Zionist movement and the state of Israel, to my mind at least, it seems natural that you will vote for a belligerent movement that are concerned with the rights of your own people, even if they are considered by many to be 'terrorists', for an example, look back to Ireland again (I know, I like the analogy) and see the huge amount of support that the paramilitary groups had amongst many Irish people, as well as overseas supporters (Specifically many Irish-Americans)

#49 histor

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 05:15 PM

Just a quick point to bear in mind for the people who are accusing the Palestinians of being ruled by terrorists, if you were living in a situation where you're entire country has effectively been dismantled and occupied by a force that hasn't lived natively in the area since the Roman empire ejected them, and it has been your historical homeland throughout the Ottoman Empire, to have all that taken away within more or less one lifespan, could you honestly say you would do anything different?

And also consider the situation in Ireland, which actually has quite a few similarities, revolving around statehood intrinsically tied to religion (Loyalists and republicans), and you will find that in order to make any progress towards a peaceful, stable future, it is necessary to all sides to be willing to compromise, and to tackle the issue of terrorism, as well as aggressive militarism from the occupational force with equal vigour, and accept that there will always be a hard-core on both sides that will not be satisfied with any kind of compromise, but the majority of people simply wish to be able to live a normal life, in peace and safety.

The issue of how Israel has acted as a state towards its neighbours, and existing inhabitants since its (artificial) inception however would get a much much more scathing post from me.

You are talking like that Jews came from diffrent countries and just occupied this country from the Arabs... I am reminding you that Jews came to israel at first because of the antisemitism in Europe, and they have settled in empty lands or bought lands from the arabs, we didn't fought for Arab lands, we got our lands in a legit way. After a while when the Jews developed those lands and built settlements, and defended those lands from arab gangs, the Un said that there should be two states and he gave the UN Partition Plan For Palestine, the Jews accepted it, the Arabs didnt, something like 5 Arab armies attacked Israel, Israel won and got some territories that according to the UN Partiation Plan belonged to the Arabs. If they hadn't attacked us in 1947, they would had probably have a state in these days. And what do you have to say about how that Israel act as a state towards its neightbours and the Arabs that have an Israeli citizenship? There are Arab towns and villages inside Israel that Arabs live there pretty good, there are Arabs in the Israeli Parlament and i can tell you more if you want. And about your question, what I would have done if I were in the same situation as the Palestinians, I am not sure, but I don't think that I would support suicide bombers, or people who are launching rockets from my house.

#50 Arie

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Posted 05 October 2011 - 09:18 PM

I understand your point azlan and it is valid. But the bottom line is, they are terrorists!! I understand arabs living in that part of the world supporting those groups. It makes sense. Many think these terrorist groups are the only ones who can make the world better for them. But what about the rest of the world? The people who sit in their nice homes away from terrorism? At this point in time by supporting this issue you are supporting terrorism. That's not something people should be comfortable with. Or are we to forget about 911 or the london underground attack. Its not just israel that these terrorists are targeting. So how can any rational thinking person support this issue fully knowing that terrorist orgnizations are at the heart of it?
But yes, I do agree that for the people who live in those areas their support makes sense.

Also dina your post was very interesting!! Thankss for sharing that information!

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#51 Rena

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 02:44 AM

And israeli's arent terrorist? so what it is called when they kill innocent palestinians? do you expect the palestinians to sit there and while their country being destroyed? And dont compare the hamas to al-qaida, al-qaida is destroying for power where hamas is defending their country.

Edited by Rena, 06 October 2011 - 02:45 AM.

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#52 Arie

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 04:31 AM

And israeli's arent terrorist? so what it is called when they kill innocent palestinians? do you expect the palestinians to sit there and while their country being destroyed? And dont compare the hamas to al-qaida, al-qaida is destroying for power where hamas is defending their country.


Yes I am saying exactly that. Because it is the truth, there are no Israeli terrorist organizations. No matter how you feel about Israel, that is a fact. Yes, to you, it might seem that some of Israel's action is terrorism. But, there are no terrorist organizations, that is the bottom line. And, obviously, I don't really know how Israeli's could even remotely be considered terrorists, feel free to show me some examples.

Two things, Palestinians are not all innocent. And, Israel takes EXTREME care to make sure no one innocent is ever killed. However, the Palestinians are the ones using children as body shields and blowing themselves up.

I don't exactly know what you are referring too bu "while their country is destroyed"? Which country, Israel? And, if so, um how exactly is it being destroyed?

Hamas is still a terrorist organization! So yeah I am going to compare them. Besides the fact that half the people being ruled by Hamas HATE Hamas. I have Arab friends, all their friends and family despise what Hamas has done to their country. I completely disagree. And farther, what Hamas does can hardly be called "defense". Something is only considered defensive when someone else attacks first. Rarely, does Israel attack first. Its one of the Army's main rules.

Hamas are the ones sending rocket after rocket over the border even though we are supposed to be in a cease fire. My BF is currently living 5k from Gaza. I have been on skype and the phone when the sirens have gone off. His life is in jeopardy everyday from Hamas. That is terrorism. He is innocently living his life in Israel. But, everyday something happens. Everyday I live in fear because of Hamas and other terrorist organizations. I will never support something that allows for terrorism. I will never support something that includes terrorist organizations. That's just me, but I guess other people are okay with terrorism.


Again, I am not saying Israel is perfect. Even though most of the posters on here keep twisting my words around to make it seem like I do. I keep making the same point over and over again.

Terrorists are terrorists... the end!! They kill and destroy. Hamas is no different then any other terrorist organization.

Oh, and one more thing. When the UN suggest a two state solution. Hamas was one of the groups to completely shoot that idea down. They want it all. So exactly how is that peaciful or fair?

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#53 The Midnight Q

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 05:05 AM

Did you know that one of the first recognized terrorist groups in the 20th Century was the Irgun, comprised of Jewish immigrants in Palestine back in the '30s.

I don't have a very strong opinion on this topic, considering I'm a little under-informed as of yet. My opinion on the conflict in the Holy Land is this. Both sides was sovereignty over the same land, its a legitimate war. Tactics aside, it's still a war. My only quib about the Israeli side is the Zionist view. It was probably the "Promised Land" in a book but I get rather annoyed at pro-Zionists who argue that the Holy Land belongs to Israel because God promised them that land. Ancestors of the ethnic Palestinians were there well before Moses ever arrived until he and Joshua's army slaughtered, everyone. In some battles in the Israelites' conquest of Canaan, nobody was spared. But I guess it was God's will. After the Romans, I guess the Israelites fled until centuries later when the British created a separate state in the region for Jewish refugees.

Edited by sirbenedictvs, 06 October 2011 - 05:13 AM.

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#54 The Midnight Q

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 05:16 AM

In my honest opinion, there will never be peace in the Middle East. That land is sacred to much of the world's population and for millenia the land is tarnished with the blood of thousands and many more to come.

(sorry to double post, I guess my time limit of editing my previous post expired)

Edited by sirbenedictvs, 06 October 2011 - 05:16 AM.

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#55 Arie

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 10:56 AM

Ill give you that on the irgun. They were a little intense however they only really did one terrorist attack so to compare them to the likes of hamas is not completely accurate. Also, irgun no longer exists.

Your point is an interesting one of course. You have to remember that israel is a religious state no matter which religion you use. That book is the bible and many of us on this board follow it. Please respect that. It is also not a good argument to say that ethnic palastinians were there before. There were people living there but they aren't really connected at all to the palastininans today. Also in your story you missed a crutial point. Gd told joshua to send them a letter. The letter told them to make a choice. Adopt moral values... The noahite laws or leave. These were a completely imoral bunch. Its a completely different ball game. They weren't even arab! To connect the too isn't valid. They were completely different people. That like saying every american is connected to native americans. That's wrong. Many many palestininans came from other countries around.

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#56 azlan

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 12:05 PM

Arie, that last post also raises an interesting point related to the issue, especially around the ideal of Zionism, in that, can there truly still be a 'Jewish' race if they have been a widely distributed and to an extent nomadic people for many years? Would it be more accurate to call a person of Jewish descent that was born in America say, an american or a Jew? and by extension, is the 'Law of Return' in fact a discriminatory policy designed to force non-Jewish people in the country to feel intimidated and subjugated, or is it still a method to allow those of Jewish descent to escape persecution?

You say that the Palestinians are not the indigenous peoples any more, but surely then, you cannot claim at the same time that the Israelis have an intrinsic right to the land either as the majority of the current population of Israel are either first generation, or descendants of western settlers

And by extension, questions need to be asked as to if the founding principles of post-war Zionism still hold any weight as state level anti-Semitism in the western world is no longer a major issue.


(Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to offend anyone with what I am saying in these posts, I'm basically trying to throw the points that I remember as being interesting dilemmas from when I studied the Arab-Israeli conflict during my A-levels out for discussion)

#57 Arie

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 04:03 PM

Arie, that last post also raises an interesting point related to the issue, especially around the ideal of Zionism, in that, can there truly still be a 'Jewish' race if they have been a widely distributed and to an extent nomadic people for many years? Would it be more accurate to call a person of Jewish descent that was born in America say, an american or a Jew? and by extension, is the 'Law of Return' in fact a discriminatory policy designed to force non-Jewish people in the country to feel intimidated and subjugated, or is it still a method to allow those of Jewish descent to escape persecution?

You say that the Palestinians are not the indigenous peoples any more, but surely then, you cannot claim at the same time that the Israelis have an intrinsic right to the land either as the majority of the current population of Israel are either first generation, or descendants of western settlers

And by extension, questions need to be asked as to if the founding principles of post-war Zionism still hold any weight as state level anti-Semitism in the western world is no longer a major issue.


(Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to offend anyone with what I am saying in these posts, I'm basically trying to throw the points that I remember as being interesting dilemmas from when I studied the Arab-Israeli conflict during my A-levels out for discussion)


I agree and disagree with some of your points. First, Judaism is not a race it is a religion. So you have to take that out of the picture. We are not racially Jewish, my race is white. Israel is a religious state. In my opinion it is a religious state for many many different people. Yes, there are many people who now live in Israel who did not originate there. Which is the same with many f the Palestinians. So to say that one or the other was there first is sort obsolete. None of us were truly there first. Because both the Jews and the Arabs are very different from our ancestors who lived in Israel in the time of the bible. The law Return is not meant to be discriminatory at all. You have to think of e context. This law came into place not long after the holocaust. Jews all over the world were terrified and at the time it was important for them to know there was somewhere they could always turn too. When you take it out of that context, the law of return sucks. I have issues with it. I love the idea that allows are welcomed back. But, i don't understand why people who are not Jewish can't become citizens. I have Christian friends living in Israel who can't even get citizenship. The law definitely needs to be updated, there have been many talks about it. But, remember the context and it will make more sense.

Correct I don't believe that most of the Palestinians are indigenous. I am not sure of the statistics of Jews living in Israel. However, this is still a huge amount of Israelis, real Israeli who can trace their families back centuries. It's actually pretty cool!! To me it just seems like there are so many more Palestinians now that all this is being talked about. Israel is completely surrounded by Arab countries so it makes sense to me that many have moved from neighboring countries. Again, I am not sure of any exact statistics, but I plan to look them up when I get home. I only know what I know. And, I know that while their are a lot of first generation Jews ect, there are tons and tons of natives too. Farther, the places that are heavily accepted by native Israelis are the cities that are most targeted by terrorists. Which adds another interesting layer.

Anti-semitism is still everywhere. It's ridiculous actually. Its gotten really bad in France and England. Even in America i still get yelled at sometimes or treated badly. This isn tsomething that is ever going to go away. People just love to hate!

I don't take offense to any posts unless they are disrespectful. I like to hear both sides of the argument. I think it's important that I share mine on here since I'm pretty much the only Jew on this entire forum. I only get upset when people attack me or are disrespectful. I do my research and I make sure what I write is as accurate as possible. But, now and then you get a poster who just freaks out and rights all kinds of random things. It's important to write in a calm manner, respectfully, and academically. That's the only way. Debate like this can work! So thank for being respectful!!! I definitely share some of your views!

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#58 azlan

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 04:26 PM

First, Judaism is not a race it is a religion. So you have to take that out of the picture. We are not racially Jewish, my race is white. Israel is a religious state. In my opinion it is a religious state for many many different people.


This on its own to me is a fairly interesting point, as Judaism is defined differently by different groups of people, and although the actual definition of 'Jewish' used by the state of Israel is largely irrelevant to any peace process, it is still an interesting topic in its own right.

The law Return is not meant to be discriminatory at all. You have to think of e context. This law came into place not long after the holocaust. Jews all over the world were terrified and at the time it was important for them to know there was somewhere they could always turn too. When you take it out of that context, the law of return sucks. I have issues with it. I love the idea that allows are welcomed back. But, i don't understand why people who are not Jewish can't become citizens. I have Christian friends living in Israel who can't even get citizenship. The law definitely needs to be updated, there have been many talks about it. But, remember the context and it will make more sense.


I wasn't so much talking about the intention of the law when it was written, more its current application, especially against the backdrop of extreme difficulty gaining citizenship for anyone not covered by the law.

the places that are heavily accepted by native Israelis are the cities that are most targeted by terrorists. Which adds another interesting layer.



That is indeed an interesting point which I wasn't aware of, and does indicate that possibly there may by an element of pure anti-Semitism from some people in Palestine, however, it also depends largely on how many of these settlements are in the contested areas between for example the borders defined in the UN partition plan, and the current claimed borders.

Anti-semitism is still everywhere. It's ridiculous actually. Its gotten really bad in France and England. Even in America i still get yelled at sometimes or treated badly. This isn tsomething that is ever going to go away. People just love to hate!



This is another intriguing and to me, slightly worrying point, I live in England, and as far as I'm aware, there is nothing at the state-level discriminating against Jews, and in fact, there are very strong freedom of expression and religion laws in place in the UK, although, if you are talking about attitudes amongst the general populace, I will concede that there are a large minority of people here that still hold very bigoted views towards any kind of foreigners or 'outsiders', which wouldn't be helped by the perception (true or not) that you tend to have very inclusive and tight-knit Jewish communities, combined with the stereotypical links with the finance industry at a time where banks etc.. are vilified by many in the general public, but on the whole, people who would act in an Anti-Semitic way would generally simply be racist, and rather than targeting Jew's in particular, would be abusive to any perceived foreigner

#59 Arie

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 07:03 PM

This on its own to me is a fairly interesting point, as Judaism is defined differently by different groups of people, and although the actual definition of 'Jewish' used by the state of Israel is largely irrelevant to any peace process, it is still an interesting topic in its own right.

I have never ever heard. Jew refer to themselves as racially Jewish. This is something that actually has a very negative connotation to it because hitler viewed Jews as a race. He wanted to completely rid the world of the jewish race. But, it's not a race. It is our religion. You can't be racially Jewish. Yes, you can be born Jewish the same way you can be born a Christian. But, that doesn't make it a race. Does that make sense? Lol

I wasn't so much talking about the intention of the law when it was written, more its current application, especially against the backdrop of extreme difficulty gaining citizenship for anyone not covered by the law.


Right, but my point is that in order to understand it you have talk about the intention. That is the reason for it's exsistance. Yes, today, it is problematic and probably should be changed. But the law is what it is because of history. You can't take something out of it's context. It is not just difficult to gain citizenship, it is impossible! I think that's awful, but I know that's not the intention of the law. The intention of the law is not to keep everyone else out, but too allow for all Jews to have a place to go.
I have a weird analogy but it makes sense to me lol. Think about the nerdiest kids in schools. Many of them feel like they have no place to go. Let's say a group of them approached the school and asked if they could have use of an empty classroom during lunchtime to study. If the school allows only certain people to use that classroom, its not to keep others out. It to provide a place for people who have np where else to go.
Yes, with that idea in mind, the law is out of date. I think right now, Israel has a lot of bigger problems and that is why this law has not been changed. There are many organizations in Israel that are trying to get it changed. There is a huge refuge population from many different parts of Africa. I am not talking about the ethiopians. Many Africans have fled to Israel for sanctuary. I know for fact that there is at least one organization that is trying to change this law so that those refuges can become citizens.

That is indeed an interesting point which I wasn't aware of, and does indicate that possibly there may by an element of pure anti-Semitism from some people in Palestine, however, it also depends largely on how many of these settlements are in the contested areas between for example the borders defined in the UN partition plan, and the current claimed borders.


I am sure there is pure anti-semetism among some Palestinians. The same way that there are Israelis who hate Palestinians. Just the same as how racism still exists all over the world.
Some are some aren't. In fact, some of the areas that I am thinking of that have never really been attacked are across the green line. However, areas that are regularly hit, like areas near gaza, are inside the borders. It doesn't make much sense. However, none of this really does.

This is another intriguing and to me, slightly worrying point, I live in England, and as far as I'm aware, there is nothing at the state-level discriminating against Jews, and in fact, there are very strong freedom of expression and religion laws in place in the UK, although, if you are talking about attitudes amongst the general populace, I will concede that there are a large minority of people here that still hold very bigoted views towards any kind of foreigners or 'outsiders', which wouldn't be helped by the perception (true or not) that you tend to have very inclusive and tight-knit Jewish communities, combined with the stereotypical links with the finance industry at a time where banks etc.. are vilified by many in the general public, but on the whole, people who would act in an Anti-Semitic way would generally simply be racist, and rather than targeting Jew's in particular, would be abusive to any perceived foreigner


It is very worrying, but no more worrying then the rest of racism that still exists in the world. I probably shouldn't have generalized England as a whole. But, in London it has gotten a lot worse. I moved from London last year and I just started noticing a change. Whenever I go back it is not the same. Many people I know who have traveled there feel weird. My father, who still lives in london, is really starting to hate it there. It may not be state-level, but it's still there. I guess, on more of a personal level then on a wide spread. I agree, people are racist that's the bottom line. I often feel like most people hate Jews and Arabs. Jews are weird and different and Arabs have dark skin. This world just doesn't understand what it means to be different. I only single out anti-semetism because that has been my experience. But, yes, it is not to be singled out. There is too much hate in this world.

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#60 azlan

azlan

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 07:25 PM

just to explain what I meant by Racially Jewish, I mean along the lines of 'ethnically Jewish' as on many equal opportunities questionnaires, or as discussed in the article http://en.wikipedia....Who_is_a_Jew.3F




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