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OMG YESSSSSS.... R/Hr have been married what then 12 years we guess? ;) awwww Romione became one...willing to die for each other-love each other more than life!!!!

 

Ron/Hermione Weasley FOREVER!!!!!!!!!! ;) ;) ;)

Go DW!!!! ;)

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I wish I could say I remembered myself... but was reminded by a post on Facebook :P

 

Jon, I find it quite nice in a way that the books are set a few years before they came out. Partly, it helps keep the magic alive by suggesting they could have been written about real events, and more importantly, helps more generations identify with the characters. There's the generation, like yourself, who identify with the 'actual' ages of the characters, and generations like mine who grew up alongside the books, at roughly the same ages as the characters when the books came out. Having said this, I also like how with the exception of a few references for those who pay attention to detail, the books could really be set any time in the past couple of decades... the time period is understated, again so it could apply to a wider age range. This is pretty off topic, it's just another little thing to notice about HP. :)

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I wish I could say I remembered myself... but was reminded by a post on Facebook :P

 

Jon, I find it quite nice in a way that the books are set a few years before they came out. Partly, it helps keep the magic alive by suggesting they could have been written about real events, and more importantly, helps more generations identify with the characters. There's the generation, like yourself, who identify with the 'actual' ages of the characters, and generations like mine who grew up alongside the books, at roughly the same ages as the characters when the books came out. Having said this, I also like how with the exception of a few references for those who pay attention to detail, the books could really be set any time in the past couple of decades... the time period is understated, again so it could apply to a wider age range. This is pretty off topic, it's just another little thing to notice about HP. :)

 

So social media DOES have a redeeming quality? :o:P

 

Off topicc or not I loved the insight Katharine. :happydance:   Even though I read the books as an adult, the fact that I was reading about characters who were kids when I was still a kid, helped my get over my, "I don't want to read a kid's book" prejudice a little.  When I opened myself up to that too, I realized that the Harry Potter series is not "a kid's book" per se and that there are so many aspects that can resonate with any age group.  The understated time frame that you mentioned was part of that but so was the diversity of the characters in a very big way.  There were amazing older characters like Dumbledore and Mcgonagall and Moody, amazing middle-agers like Lupin and Sirius Black, of course the kids, and HELLO... who was the hero of the story???? A BABY!  (sorry for shouting there >.<)  The baby boy who lived. 

 

Rowling's story was a masterpiece of diversity and acceptance in a lot of ways.  You could be smart or average, old or young, male or female, tall, short, fat, thin, and while I have never known whether or not Rowling confirmed or denied the rumours that Dumbledore was gay, the fact that there was a discussion of it helped express diversity and acceptance.  IF Rowling did reveal Dumbledore's sexuality one way or the other, I'd rather not know tbh because it seems cooler if she chose to leave that ambiguous and open to either possibility.  Ultimately it doesn't matter if Dumbledore is gay or straight, or old or young, or tall or short, or fat or thin, because he's simply the coolest character and anyone (any reader) would love to be that cool.   Most anyone would love to be Albus Dumbledore.  :king:

 

Whew... thanks Katharine... see what ya did?  Made me get all off topic too. :puh: :D

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As the Romione captain, yall are being sent to the brig ;)

No but it is true the things yall said above. HP series is just honestly the best series I have ever read. The characters especially R/Hr are so lovable and likable. If only it could have been extended into post years but thats what FF is for right?

Back on topic-ROMIONE!! ;)

When R/Hr were introduced, how many of yall believed they were meant from the start?

I really tbh didnt give it much thought until their 5th yr...liked them together in first and second thinking how adorable but 3rd I was like hmmm, they seem to have some feelings for each other-being mad over a rat and cat-was something more to it ;) then of course 4th yr-JEALOUSY...thats when I was like ok they have feelings for each other...5th-CONFIRMED ;)

So that was my R/Hr journey-what about yall?

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Sorry Cap'n! Back on track as soon as I've taken the time to applaud Jon's post. You are so right. The appeal the books have is largely due to the fact that they are applicable to just about everyone, with such a diverse range of characters adults and children alike can identify with. There are so many hidden depths. I could go on about this forever, but I won't. :P

 

Ahem. RON AND HERMIONE FOREVEEEERRRRRR!

 

There we go. Back on topic ;)

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Seemless transition there DW. :yesyes:

 

Thank you for the kind words.  I can't believe I left out race though! :doh:  With the Full Blooded Wizards, the Half Blooded and the Muggle-born. Not to mention the HOUSE ELVES (gosh, Hermione would kill ME... Ron remembered the House Elves even! ) :doh:  Where's the penseive when I need it to help me remember things as I remembered them once before?

 

Ron is my favorite HP character (I'm sure I've mentioned that before) and it's closely followed by Harry/Snape.  The thing I like so much about both Ron and Harry is that not everyone can be a Harry and not everyone can be a Ron either.  It's no easy task to be the hero and take on the huge responsibilities and expectations that Harry had to carry.  When you do though, the hero generally gets the glory.  The great thing with Ron was that his heroism was so often obscured by Harry, and while he was jealous at times, he was still a great and true friend.  Not everyone can be the person who struggles with self confidence and be considered average in many ways, but still rise to the occasion and be heroic.  That is what won Hermione's heart for Ron.  She saw all his insecurities and struggles with self confidence, and she saw that his humor was often witty and bright and displayed his intelligence, but also could be sardonic at times, and front those insecurities.  It took a very smart girl to see not just the Ron that some anti-Ron fans saw, but to see the Ron beneath that.  The smart, funny, fiercely loyal and heroic boy who could love her like no one else and sacrifice for her like no one else.  Some girls are book smart but not neccessarily life smart.  What I love about Hermione is that she was not just book smart, but she was life smart too.  She could see the boy/man who really loved her, the one who would die for her if neccessary.  Harry would die for anyone (which is incredibly honorable and noble) but Ron would die for only a few, only those he loved most (which has a different sort of nobility that is no less honorable than Harry's, just different).  I don't mean to suggest the fact that Ron would die for Hermione was the "deciding" factor in their getting together.  It was simply an element of it.  I know this comment will be a bit controversial, but I'm not sure that Harry would die for Hermione or die for Ginny even (at least with Ginny prior to the defeat of Voldemort, afterwards I could see him willing to die for her).  That's not because Harry didn't love them, but Harry was a special kind of person who could look towards the importance of the ultimate goal and the ultimate sacrifice, which was to sacrifice for the well being of everyone and not a single person. Plus Harry got to see so many people sacrifice for HIM.  Some because they loved him, but others because they knew that Harry was the chosen one.  If Harry couldn't fathom his importance during his early school years, then as more and more people, Sirius, Albus, Moody (and later everyone during the final battle) and Dobby died for him, that  along with Dumbledore's guidance had to impress upon him his greater purpose.   Just my .02 cents.  Sorry, Katharine was kind enough to not go on and on and I totally ignored that with a run on paragraph.  There was some good Ron/Hermione stuff in there though on my behalf Cap'n! :D

 

Oh, and next time I get thrown in the brig can you throw me in BEFORE Katharine... she drank all the fire whiskey before I got there. :puh:

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ROFL!!!! Capn says it is ok ;-)

 

I just enjoyed reading your post jon! :-)

 

The one thing I just loved about Ron was that he loved Hermione unconditionally. He didnt care that she was a Muggle born. All he saw was a witch who was BRILLIANT (to quote Ron ;)). He just loves her for her passion, her caring nature, and the fact that the sexual tension explodes when these 2 have an argument/row with each other hehe...Ron fell in love with the bushy haired, intelligent, sweet, stubborn Muggle born witch. Pity anyone who would try to hurt his girl. But the other thing I always loved about Ron was that he never put Hermione down for any of her ideas/suggestions. He never ignored her (yes he was oblivious at times but he was ALWAYS paying attention to her-case in point in DH 2 "you said that last year about the Room of Requirement"-that's right I did" ;)

 

 

Sorry for the quality...but the looks-of course happened right after the hot make out scene in Chamber ;) but the looks say I want to spend the rest of my life with you.

Harry didnt respect Hermione the way Ron did...I am sorry but he just didnt. I know he loved Hermione as a sister and Hermione loved Harry as a lil brother and all but you can tell he would get annoyed the way a brother would and Hermione would get annoyed the way a sister would with a brother. Ron whenever he got annoyed or Hermione got annoyed with Ron-capacity as husband and wife. People I remember used to joke and say R/Hr acted like a married couple when they argued. That says it all ;)

Anyway I could go on and on about our couple-ROMIONE FOREVER....

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Oh, and next time I get thrown in the brig can you throw me in BEFORE Katharine... she drank all the fire whiskey before I got there. :puh:

 

:rolleye0012:

 

 

I love and agree with what both of you just said. And to dissuade myself from an epic, gushing post, I shall resolve to say nothing on the matter at all, except I LOVE R/HR AND I LOVE YOU GUUUUYYYSS!

 

Sorry, all that firewhisky must have gone to my head. ;)

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LOL!!! NIIIICE DW ;-)

Trixie I know what ya mean!!! :-) ROMIONE FOREVER....I was watching DH 1 on Family Channel this weekend-added deleted scenes...they should NEVER have deleted the scene where Hermione is caring for Ron on the cot as the discuss the locket...also the rock throwing scene ;-) Sorry-but THAT was SO a R/E scene... ;) so that will go over to the R/E thread hehe...

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Watched the first movie today on my dvd player.  Right after Ron sacrifices himself to win the game of wizard's chess, Hermione wants to run over to him but Harry reminds her they are still playing the game.  Interesting that Ron chose to play the Knight as he ends up being Hermione's Knight in shing armour.  Once Hermone gets to Harry and Ron and tells Harry he must be the one to go on, repeating what Ron had told Harry and Hermione, Harry tells Hermione she's the smartest in their class, and Hermione says, "There are more important things than being smart, like friendship and bravery".  Right then and there she is expressing the qualities she value's most.  Ron, her Knight, had just displayed those qualities.  I'm not suggesting that Hermione was already having any kinds of romantic feelings for Ron at that age, just that she and Ron were already expressing how compatible they were.   

 

After Hermione uses the petrificous totalus (sp?) charm on Neville Ron says, "You're dangerous!  BRILLIANT!  But dangerous"  So Ron is expressing how he appreciates Hermione's intelligence and her willingness to do what needs to be done. 

 

Lots of time people who have trouble appreciating the Ron and Hermione relationship like to point to their fights and barbs, but often times they would ignore these critical moments, when Ron and Hermione showed how much they appreciated eachother, which often happened when the business at hand was most serious. 

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OMG PROPS A THOUSAND TIMES OVER jon!!!! ;)

 

The thing that I always loved about R/Hr relationship was there willingness to do things for each other and others. I am not saying that Harry didnt always appreciate them (as we know he did) but I feel at times Harry kind of ignored what they did. But again that is my opinion...I love Harry but honestly I didnt like the way he sometimes treated Ron or Hermione.

 

As for R/Hr relationship....someone posted this on tumblr-it was during PoA time and it shows how Ron was always the ONLY one to notice when Hermione would suddenly appear out of nowhere-it was SO true-no one else would question it...anyway the person's tumblr continues with "Ron Weasley, best boyfriend of Hermione's even before they fell for each other-always knowing where his girlfriend was". I just thought wow, this truly is the honest truth. AWWW...I could write pages on R/Hr relationship so instead I just bullet :)

 

-fight/banter like 2 passionate people in love-sexual tension oozing since year 4 really.

-would die for each other

-respect each other

-love each other more than life

-support each other

-trust each other

-believe in each other

-listens to each other (eventually ;))

-hot and sexy with each other

-brave

-BELONG TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

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OMG PROPS A THOUSAND TIMES OVER jon!!!! ;)

 

The thing that I always loved about R/Hr relationship was there willingness to do things for each other and others. I am not saying that Harry didnt always appreciate them (as we know he did) but I feel at times Harry kind of ignored what they did. But again that is my opinion...I love Harry but honestly I didnt like the way he sometimes treated Ron or Hermione.

 

As for R/Hr relationship....someone posted this on tumblr-it was during PoA time and it shows how Ron was always the ONLY one to notice when Hermione would suddenly appear out of nowhere-it was SO true-no one else would question it...anyway the person's tumblr continues with "Ron Weasley, best boyfriend of Hermione's even before they fell for each other-always knowing where his girlfriend was". I just thought wow, this truly is the honest truth. AWWW...I could write pages on R/Hr relationship so instead I just bullet :)

 

-fight/banter like 2 passionate people in love-sexual tension oozing since year 4 really.

-would die for each other

-respect each other

-love each other more than life

-support each other

-trust each other

-believe in each other

-listens to each other (eventually ;))

-hot and sexy with each other

-brave

-BELONG TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

 

Kristin, I can totally see how Harry's treatment of Ron and Hermione at times could rub you the wrong way a bit.  That said, Harry didn't grow up in the loving family that Ron and Hermione had the benefit of.  I truly think that hardened him a bit emotionally in a way.  It isn't that Harry didn't have emotion, but he grew up in an environment where he had to show discipline and self control, otherwise he could have been a mean-spirited and hateful person.  He put a bit of a shell around himself.  It took a special person in Ginny to know when he needed to be under that shell and to know how to get him out from under it (I could put this post in the H/G thread probably too. LOL).  I truthfully do not think Harry could have done what he had to do without that shell though.  When he had to sacrifice his life for the betterment of everyone, it was his ability to call on that protective shell that allowed him to do it.  Without it, his love for Ginny would be too much at the surface for him to have made that sacrifice.  That in NO WAY means that his love for Ginny was less than Ron's for Hermione or Hermione's for Ron or Ginny's for him.  Dumbledore was smart.  He saw the bigger picture and perhaps he was a bit cruel in making the choice he made.  Afterall, someone like Hagrid would not have been able to do it.  He knew that Harry had to be hidden and had to grow up in an environment that hardened him a bit.  It would have been easy to place him in a home where he was adored and showered with love.  He wouldn't have been as protected from Voldemort and he wouldn't have been as emotionally prepared to sacrifice himself.  Harry was literally Dumbledore's Man.  It's kind of a business statement in a way... "the company man".. the guy who will do what ever needs to be done to finish the job.  Very task orienented.  Dumdledore shaped that task oriented personality the day he placed Harry Potter on the doorstep of the Dursley's.

 

Ron and Hermione were two very openly emotional people who could wear their hearts on their sleeves.  It created many of the dynamic arguments that arose betwee them.  There are arguments that grow out of hatred and then their are arguements that grow out of love.  Hermione and Ron's arguments grew out of their love for one another and their desire to be together.

 

I truly loved and agree with what you posted about Ron and Hermoine too Kristin.  I kind of think of our lives like puzzles sometimes.  The people who make up our lives are the pieces of that puzzle.  They all have a spot and they all fit in somewhere.  We all lead different lives, so some of those pictures are beautiful landscapes, while others can be dark or difficult places .  The pieces closest to us are the people who are closest to us.  If we are a good (light) person, it makes sense that the pieces closest to us are also good (light).  The more light and beautiful pieces (or people) we have to put into that picture, the more fortunate we are.  That said, EVERYONE's picture has some light and some shadow (the people who harm or hurt us).  Harry's picture while it had light, also had more shadow than most.  Hermione's and Ron's pictures had significantly more light. The person we love in life is that final bright piece.  That one that completes the puzzle.  Unfortunately not everyone gets a completed puzzle, but Ron and Hermione completed eachothers.   Harry's puzzle  though it had lots of shadow, had it's share of light too (as almsot every life will) so Ginny did have a place.  Ginny was that final light piece in Harry's puzzle.  Ron was the final light (diluminator *wink wink*) piece in Hermione's puzzle. 

 

Eh probably didn't explain that the best.  Things never come out exactly as I have them in my head. >.<  But hopefully it made the point. I should stop before I write a book. 

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Jon, I love your insight about Dumbledore choosing to place Harry at the Dursley's not just for his mother's protection there, but to prepare him emotionally. There is no doubt that Harry's relationship with and treatment by the Dursleys had an effect on his attitude towards relationships... many people have often said he is remarkably well adjusted considering the lack of love he was shown in the first decade of his life. But I think you're right in suggesting that had he been placed in another wizarding home, for example, he may not have been able to face/survive the task ahead of him. Perhaps had he grown up knowing who he was, he would have become too over-confident, or although he would still surely have felt the loss of his parents, perhaps a 'replacement' love from another family would have lessened the impact of his loss. As it was, I think that Harry's childhood with the Dursley's, not receiving any affection himself, but clearly seeing the love Vernon and Petunia showed to Dudley, he was constantly reminded of the family he might have had, the loss of his mother's love in particular deeply rooted into his system. Lily's love is an incredibly important theme in the books. I wonder, if he had felt his parents' loss less, would he have been less motivated in the task ahead? Keeping his parents pivotal in his mind was crucial to keeping Harry focused on what he needed to do.

 

Sorry, that was incredibly off topic, but I wanted to respond. But hey, everything's linked in HP. Let's consider the impact R/Hr's upbringing had on their relationship... well, undoubtedly their childhood affected their character and therefore their role in the series. Ron, growing up in a big, warm family grew up with a kind heart, warm humour and a quest to prove himself over his siblings. He also formed a lot of the insecurities which lead, ultimately, to the destruction of the locket. Hermione grew up an only child with loving parents, so she was a caring friend, though little socially awkward at times and very intelligent/studious, possibly helped by the encouragement of her dentist parents. So then the qualities which Ron and Hermione formed, in part due to their childhood experiences, were intrinsic not only to their roles in the plot/as Harry's friend, but in making them compatible with eachother. Ron's warmth and fun loosened Hermione up and lessened her social awkwardness. Hermione's seriousness grounded Ron a bit and her encouragement of him (for example, in Quidditch) gave him self confidence.

 

There we go, nice little clever link back ;)

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AHHHH you guys!!! I LOVED your insights!! Jon, forget it-you said it beautifully!! It was a wonderful explanation!! First I want to start with jon:

 

I completely take back what I said about Harry. What you said made perfect sense. If Harry had been placed in a home with loving people, he may have "forgotten" his parents to some extent and his drive and will to avenge their deaths may not have been as powerful. Also when I think about it, Harry was always told how his parents sacrificed themselves for him out of love. Maybe Harry wouldn't have been able to complete his mission had he not had this as his driving force. Who knows? Jon, also I would NEVER have thought about Dumbledore's choosing. I never gave it a second thought that Dumbledore could have placed Harry with others. But no, he chose the Dursleys knowing that they would treat Harry like gum stuck to the bottom of their shoe. This in turn would lead Harry to develop a shell as you said, thus making him more protected from the outside world. DW, GOOD point-I think with Harry's personality, he could be a little overconfident. I also think that Harry was a "boyscout" who was always trying to do things for the greater good.

 

I have a question for yall: If it was a choice between saving Ron or Hermione, who do you think Harry would choose? Also, if it meant R/Hr's lives in exchange for Voldemort's life, do you think Harry would sacrifice Ron/Hermione? Just curious to hear your all's take. I will share mine....

 

I think Harry would save Ron. I know they are both his best friends but I feel he would save Ron-Ron was always his best friend and like a brother to him. I think in many ways Harry felt closer to Ron than to Hermione. It doesnt mean though that Harry would hurt less if it meant losing Hermione, his "sister". But I also believe without question, Ron would save Hermione over Harry. I think that if push came to shove and Ron and Harry wouldn't have had Dobby rescue them in the dungeon, I think Ron would have given Harry up to save Hermione. Hermione the same thing-she couldnt live without Ron. She would save Ron over Harry. I mean even thinking back to the Chess game, Hermione was willing to walk over to Ron knowing the game was not finished but Harry stopped her. Anyway what do you all think?

 

As for R/Hr vs Voldemort? I dont know why I asked this question because it makes me sad to think about. I really believe if R/Hr's lives were hanging in the balance, they would tell Harry to let them go. To save the world by giving them up. I think Harry would argue and be angry as hell at them but I think R/Hr would tell Harry it was ok and that they (R/Hr) would be together always and watching over him, waiting for him someday. Again this makes me tear up thinking about this scenario.

 

Ok back on topic LOL...see what yall do? LOL

 

RON AND HERMIONE: LOVE what you and DW said Jon!!!!!

"Hermione's and Ron's pictures had significantly more light. The person we love in life is that final bright piece. That one that completes the puzzle. Unfortunately not everyone gets a completed puzzle, but Ron and Hermione completed eachothers. Harry's puzzle though it had lots of shadow, had it's share of light too (as almsot every life will) so Ginny did have a place. Ginny was that final light piece in Harry's puzzle. Ron was the final light (diluminator *wink wink*) piece in Hermione's puzzle".

 

They SO completed each other, didnt they!!! ;) Btw nice touch with the Deluminator reference!

 

"Let's consider the impact R/Hr's upbringing had on their relationship... well, undoubtedly their childhood affected their character and therefore their role in the series. Ron, growing up in a big, warm family grew up with a kind heart, warm humour and a quest to prove himself over his siblings. He also formed a lot of the insecurities which lead, ultimately, to the destruction of the locket. Hermione grew up an only child with loving parents, so she was a caring friend, though little socially awkward at times and very intelligent/studious, possibly helped by the encouragement of her dentist parents. So then the qualities which Ron and Hermione formed, in part due to their childhood experiences, were intrinsic not only to their roles in the plot/as Harry's friend, but in making them compatible with eachother. Ron's warmth and fun loosened Hermione up and lessened her social awkwardness. Hermione's seriousness grounded Ron a bit and her encouragement of him (for example, in Quidditch) gave him self confidence"

 

BEAUTIFUL DW!!!! :-) :') I mean it says it all about R/Hr relationship...they were different yet so alike in many ways. R/Hr relationship really should be identified as one of the top 3 love stories of all time.

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Jon, I love your insight about Dumbledore choosing to place Harry at the Dursley's not just for his mother's protection there, but to prepare him emotionally. There is no doubt that Harry's relationship with and treatment by the Dursleys had an effect on his attitude towards relationships... many people have often said he is remarkably well adjusted considering the lack of love he was shown in the first decade of his life. But I think you're right in suggesting that had he been placed in another wizarding home, for example, he may not have been able to face/survive the task ahead of him. Perhaps had he grown up knowing who he was, he would have become too over-confident, or although he would still surely have felt the loss of his parents, perhaps a 'replacement' love from another family would have lessened the impact of his loss. As it was, I think that Harry's childhood with the Dursley's, not receiving any affection himself, but clearly seeing the love Vernon and Petunia showed to Dudley, he was constantly reminded of the family he might have had, the loss of his mother's love in particular deeply rooted into his system. Lily's love is an incredibly important theme in the books. I wonder, if he had felt his parents' loss less, would he have been less motivated in the task ahead? Keeping his parents pivotal in his mind was crucial to keeping Harry focused on what he needed to do.

 

Sorry, that was incredibly off topic, but I wanted to respond. But hey, everything's linked in HP. Let's consider the impact R/Hr's upbringing had on their relationship... well, undoubtedly their childhood affected their character and therefore their role in the series. Ron, growing up in a big, warm family grew up with a kind heart, warm humour and a quest to prove himself over his siblings. He also formed a lot of the insecurities which lead, ultimately, to the destruction of the locket. Hermione grew up an only child with loving parents, so she was a caring friend, though little socially awkward at times and very intelligent/studious, possibly helped by the encouragement of her dentist parents. So then the qualities which Ron and Hermione formed, in part due to their childhood experiences, were intrinsic not only to their roles in the plot/as Harry's friend, but in making them compatible with eachother. Ron's warmth and fun loosened Hermione up and lessened her social awkwardness. Hermione's seriousness grounded Ron a bit and her encouragement of him (for example, in Quidditch) gave him self confidence.

 

There we go, nice little clever link back ;)

 

Katharine, the point about Harry seeing a loving family, albeit a slightly (slightly might be generous of me)disfunctional one relative to the excessive showering of love on Dudley by Vernon and Petunia, was an excellent point that I missed.  Part of the reason that Harry never took to the whole "celebrity" aspect of being Harry Potter was because he actually got to see Dudley, who in a very real sense was a "celebrity" in his own home.  This exposed Harry to the negative aspects of celebrity.  How pampering could bring about a sense of entitlement and superiority.  Harry could have turned one of three ways, he could have coveted it, he could have shrank from it, or he could have put it in the proper perspective.  Once Harry received his sudden celebrity, he was able to quickly put it in perspective. I think part of him being able to put it into perspective when he got into the wizarding world is that he found out that even Voldemort carried a kind of celebrity status.  Seeing Dudley and Voldemort let him know that celebrity could have its pitfalls.  I wonder how different Harry might have been had Dudley been treated much like he was by Vernon and Petunia?

 

Your Ron and Hermione insights were spot on Katharine!  I love and completely agree with your explaination of the roles Ron and Hermione's upbringings played into the story's plot and their compatability with one another.  When you break down the complexity's of it all it really is quite evident what a master work Jo Rowling created.

 

AHHHH you guys!!! I LOVED your insights!! Jon, forget it-you said it beautifully!! It was a wonderful explanation!! First I want to start with jon:

 

I completely take back what I said about Harry. What you said made perfect sense. If Harry had been placed in a home with loving people, he may have "forgotten" his parents to some extent and his drive and will to avenge their deaths may not have been as powerful. Also when I think about it, Harry was always told how his parents sacrificed themselves for him out of love. Maybe Harry wouldn't have been able to complete his mission had he not had this as his driving force. Who knows? Jon, also I would NEVER have thought about Dumbledore's choosing. I never gave it a second thought that Dumbledore could have placed Harry with others. But no, he chose the Dursleys knowing that they would treat Harry like gum stuck to the bottom of their shoe. This in turn would lead Harry to develop a shell as you said, thus making him more protected from the outside world. DW, GOOD point-I think with Harry's personality, he could be a little overconfident. I also think that Harry was a "boyscout" who was always trying to do things for the greater good.

 

I have a question for yall: If it was a choice between saving Ron or Hermione, who do you think Harry would choose? Also, if it meant R/Hr's lives in exchange for Voldemort's life, do you think Harry would sacrifice Ron/Hermione? Just curious to hear your all's take. I will share mine....

 

I think Harry would save Ron. I know they are both his best friends but I feel he would save Ron-Ron was always his best friend and like a brother to him. I think in many ways Harry felt closer to Ron than to Hermione. It doesnt mean though that Harry would hurt less if it meant losing Hermione, his "sister". But I also believe without question, Ron would save Hermione over Harry. I think that if push came to shove and Ron and Harry wouldn't have had Dobby rescue them in the dungeon, I think Ron would have given Harry up to save Hermione. Hermione the same thing-she couldnt live without Ron. She would save Ron over Harry. I mean even thinking back to the Chess game, Hermione was willing to walk over to Ron knowing the game was not finished but Harry stopped her. Anyway what do you all think?

 

As for R/Hr vs Voldemort? I dont know why I asked this question because it makes me sad to think about. I really believe if R/Hr's lives were hanging in the balance, they would tell Harry to let them go. To save the world by giving them up. I think Harry would argue and be angry as hell at them but I think R/Hr would tell Harry it was ok and that they (R/Hr) would be together always and watching over him, waiting for him someday. Again this makes me tear up thinking about this scenario.

 

Ok back on topic LOL...see what yall do? LOL

 

RON AND HERMIONE: LOVE what you and DW said Jon!!!!!

"Hermione's and Ron's pictures had significantly more light. The person we love in life is that final bright piece. That one that completes the puzzle. Unfortunately not everyone gets a completed puzzle, but Ron and Hermione completed eachothers. Harry's puzzle though it had lots of shadow, had it's share of light too (as almsot every life will) so Ginny did have a place. Ginny was that final light piece in Harry's puzzle. Ron was the final light (diluminator *wink wink*) piece in Hermione's puzzle".

 

They SO completed each other, didnt they!!! ;) Btw nice touch with the Deluminator reference!

 

"Let's consider the impact R/Hr's upbringing had on their relationship... well, undoubtedly their childhood affected their character and therefore their role in the series. Ron, growing up in a big, warm family grew up with a kind heart, warm humour and a quest to prove himself over his siblings. He also formed a lot of the insecurities which lead, ultimately, to the destruction of the locket. Hermione grew up an only child with loving parents, so she was a caring friend, though little socially awkward at times and very intelligent/studious, possibly helped by the encouragement of her dentist parents. So then the qualities which Ron and Hermione formed, in part due to their childhood experiences, were intrinsic not only to their roles in the plot/as Harry's friend, but in making them compatible with eachother. Ron's warmth and fun loosened Hermione up and lessened her social awkwardness. Hermione's seriousness grounded Ron a bit and her encouragement of him (for example, in Quidditch) gave him self confidence"

 

BEAUTIFUL DW!!!! :-) :') I mean it says it all about R/Hr relationship...they were different yet so alike in many ways. R/Hr relationship really should be identified as one of the top 3 love stories of all time.

 

Kristin

Thanks for the praise. >.<  and the questions, scenarios you proposed are part of what I love discussing when it comes to the Harry Potter books.  Trying to decypher how the characters would act given certain scenarios, based upon our knowledge of them.

 

I had to laugh out loud though Kristin!  You tried to ask me a "trick" question didn't you? =P 

 

Movie Harry would have undoubtedly saved Hermione over Ron.  Hermoine somewhat assumed the Ron role for Harry in the movies.  She was more his buddy and Ron was more a friend because Harry was friends with Hermione.  While Ron was jealous in the movies and the books, in the movies that jealousy seemed to derive a lot out of Harry's celebrity and Harry's closeness to Hermione. In the books Ron's jealousy derived more from Harry's celebrity and Ron's insecurities IMO.  In the movies Harry and Hermiones relationship gave Ron more REASON to be jealous of Harry and Hermione.  Honestly it bothered me.  Sometimes the movies made it seem like Harry wished Ron were out of the way so that he could be with Hermione and that totally misrepresented the truth of the Ron/Harry relationship in the books. Not only did it misrepresent the friendship, but it also misrepresented both Harry and Ron, making each of them somewhat less likeable characters to me than their book personas.

 

Book Harry would have most likely saved Ron if he had to choose.  Ron was his best friend, and in a way, the brother that he never had in Dudley.  In the books, Harry was friends with Hermione, but often times she could get under his skin and he preferred to be alone or wished Ron were there.  In the books, Hermione would likely always have become friends with Harry, but I question whether or not without Ron, Hermione and Harry would have become as good friends as they did.  Hermione too, could get annoyed with Harry, and badger (or Hufflepuff him as I like to say LOL)  him to be more responsible.  Harry would have been devasted to lose Hermione but Ron would have been his clear personal choice to save in the books.  The only reason I leave the idea that he might save Hermione over Ron open even a bit in the books, is because after you get a few years in, Harry would likely have realized that Ron would prefer Harry save Hermione over him.  Harry's bond with Ron might have been strong enough for him to do what Ron wanted over what he wanted.

 

As far as the second scenario, there is where I think Voldemort might have failed.  He never really focused his attentions on going after Ron and Hermione.  His attention was most often set on Harry.  I think his best bet for defeating Harry would have been to get to Ron and Hermione.  We saw Harry's obsession with Beletrix after she killed Sirius. I don't think Harry would  have been able to kill Voldemort without Ron and Hermione.  I think Harry knew that two.  He KNEW his two biggest strengths were his friends.  Therefore, I don't think he would have sacrificed them to kill Voldemort.  Earlier I made mention of how Harry was "Dumbledore's Man".  I only believe that to an extreme point though, and that extreme point ends with Ron and Hermione's lives.  I think the strongest message of the entire book is the friendship of the trio.  If JKR had chosen to break that in any way it would have ruined the series.  I think although she onsidered doing so, she knew in her heart that it would ruin the heart and soul of the stories.  I do not think that Hermione and Ron could give an argument that Harry could accept Kristin if they told him to let them die.   For me, as harsh as it may sound,  if JKR had chosen to kill one of the trio I would have wanted her to kill all three of them together.

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Woah...I just am taking it all in jon ;)

I need to come back so I can let it all sink in :) I am placing this on pause-meantime, RONHERMIONE SHIPPERS your turn before Jon and I ;)

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You raised a good question, Kristen... Personally, I'm not sure what my thoughts are on who Harry/Ron/Hermione would choose if forced to choose between eachother. I think Harry would be more likely to offer himself to save both of them and not make that choice. In fact, I think that could be true of the others as well. I agree that Ron has more emotional significance to Harry, and Hermione probably has more emotional significance to Ron, so if forced, they might make decisions on that basis. Hermione, although her heart lies with Ron, I think would be more inclined to follow her head... if she had had to make the choice during the series, with Voldemort undefeated, I think she could have chosen Harry. In a way, she did, to a lesser extent, by staying with him when Ron left. The battle with Voldemort and fate of the wizarding world had to be the priority, over her own emotions. So in a similar vein maybe she would have saved Harry. It's a difficult question, with many plausible answers. I also like the distinguishment Jon made between the choices of the book and movie characters. Sadly, I think you're right, they would have chosen differently.

 

Jon, excellent point about Harry's attitude to 'celebrity'. I hadn't really considered it before, but you're right - seeing the effects of the likes of Dudley and Voldemort probably gave him a very cynical attitude towards 'fame'. Though he did also have a good example in Dumbledore... who guided and showed Harry that the greatest respect has to be earned from doing good. Perhaps this was another knock Harry received in DH on discovering aspects of Dumbledore's past... it was another aspect of Dumbledore's teaching which Skeeter etc helped call into question for Harry.

 

And I LOVE your insight that Voldemort's mistake was in going after Harry rather than those he loved. This is so true. There was great emphasis in the series on Voldemort's inability to love - had he understood it better, and consequently understood Harry better, perhaps he would have targeted more of his friends and potentially won after all. Voldemort and his Death Eaters clearly noted and abused the value of certain people to Harry - Dumbledore and Sirius, for two. But perhaps their mistake was in focusing on his mentors - by breaking down the stronger wizards around him, who guided him, they hoped to weaken Harry. But although Harry obviously loved the victims immensely, their loss was more in their influence than necessarily their friendship. Voldemort probably didn't see Ron, Hermione and the like as worth killing off. He killed the ones with a strength which could hold a threat - Ron and Hermione were just children to Voldemort, he couldn't possibly understand the value Harry placed on them and the impact their loss would have had.

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You raised a good question, Kristen... Personally, I'm not sure what my thoughts are on who Harry/Ron/Hermione would choose if forced to choose between eachother. I think Harry would be more likely to offer himself to save both of them and not make that choice. In fact, I think that could be true of the others as well. I agree that Ron has more emotional significance to Harry, and Hermione probably has more emotional significance to Ron, so if forced, they might make decisions on that basis. Hermione, although her heart lies with Ron, I think would be more inclined to follow her head... if she had had to make the choice during the series, with Voldemort undefeated, I think she could have chosen Harry. In a way, she did, to a lesser extent, by staying with him when Ron left. The battle with Voldemort and fate of the wizarding world had to be the priority, over her own emotions. So in a similar vein maybe she would have saved Harry. It's a difficult question, with many plausible answers. I also like the distinguishment Jon made between the choices of the book and movie characters. Sadly, I think you're right, they would have chosen differently.

 

Jon, excellent point about Harry's attitude to 'celebrity'. I hadn't really considered it before, but you're right - seeing the effects of the likes of Dudley and Voldemort probably gave him a very cynical attitude towards 'fame'. Though he did also have a good example in Dumbledore... who guided and showed Harry that the greatest respect has to be earned from doing good. Perhaps this was another knock Harry received in DH on discovering aspects of Dumbledore's past... it was another aspect of Dumbledore's teaching which Skeeter etc helped call into question for Harry.

 

And I LOVE your insight that Voldemort's mistake was in going after Harry rather than those he loved. This is so true. There was great emphasis in the series on Voldemort's inability to love - had he understood it better, and consequently understood Harry better, perhaps he would have targeted more of his friends and potentially won after all. Voldemort and his Death Eaters clearly noted and abused the value of certain people to Harry - Dumbledore and Sirius, for two. But perhaps their mistake was in focusing on his mentors - by breaking down the stronger wizards around him, who guided him, they hoped to weaken Harry. But although Harry obviously loved the victims immensely, their loss was more in their influence than necessarily their friendship. Voldemort probably didn't see Ron, Hermione and the like as worth killing off. He killed the ones with a strength which could hold a threat - Ron and Hermione were just children to Voldemort, he couldn't possibly understand the value Harry placed on them and the impact their loss would have had.

 

Ron and Hermione were "just children" perhaps, but wasn't Harry too, when he was "the Boy Who Lived"?  So part of me thought Voldemort might respect the danger children represented after that.  That said it's understandable that Voldemort would not see other children as threats, esp. being they did not have prophecies around them (with the possible exception of Neville).  I truly agree with your excellent point about Voldemort attacking Dumbledore and Sirius for their rolls as mentors, either not equating the personal attachment Harry had to them, or merely considering it a collateral benefit to the more important goal of defeating two powerful wizards.  Ironically from that perspective, Harry suffered more from the personal loss.  Dumbledore or at least his influence stayed somewhat with Harry in the gifts he left the trio.  Sirius' help also stayed after his death in the house at 12 Grimauld Place and the protection it provided for the trio until the unfortunate Apperating accident.

 

Harry's interactions with Rita Skeeter and her portrayal of Dumbledore are also well spotted examples of what may have helped to develop Harry's healthy perspective of celebrity. Great job Katharine!

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Thinking about it, I believe you're right Jon. In referring to R/Hr as 'just children' I meant rather that they had nothing 'special' about them in Voldemort's eyes. I agree with your suggestion that Voldemort would probably be less inclined to underestimate children than most adults. Not least because of the prophecy concerning Harry and his defeat of Voldemort as just a baby, but perhaps also because as a child himself he always had a special view of himself - it was the young Riddle he placed in the diary horcrux after all - he must have had a degree of respect for his younger self. Also being a member of the Slug Club probably boosted his ego concerning the power of young people, in addition to his own superior abilities both academically and with the special abilities he possessed, such as parseltongue. Voldemort was by no means a 'weak' child himself, I think he would have had the sense to appreciate what young people are capable of.

 

That said, Ron and Hermione did not possess any special abilities (aside from perhaps intelligence, but then Dumbledore was a bigger threat in that department) which would have registered to Voldemort. Having no 'friends' himself, he would not appreciate the value of their friendship and love in Harry's quest. From Voldemort's position, I don't think Ron and Hermione would have been high on his radar compared to most of the Order, except when they might lead him to Harry. Which possibly proved a fatal error for Voldemort.

 

I also love what you said (Jon) about Dumbledore and Sirius leaving their marks with what they bequeathed to Harry - again, symbols of affection as much as protection.

 

Gah, I love these books.

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Thinking about it, I believe you're right Jon. In referring to R/Hr as 'just children' I meant rather that they had nothing 'special' about them in Voldemort's eyes. I agree with your suggestion that Voldemort would probably be less inclined to underestimate children than most adults. Not least because of the prophecy concerning Harry and his defeat of Voldemort as just a baby, but perhaps also because as a child himself he always had a special view of himself - it was the young Riddle he placed in the diary horcrux after all - he must have had a degree of respect for his younger self. Also being a member of the Slug Club probably boosted his ego concerning the power of young people, in addition to his own superior abilities both academically and with the special abilities he possessed, such as parseltongue. Voldemort was by no means a 'weak' child himself, I think he would have had the sense to appreciate what young people are capable of.

 

That said, Ron and Hermione did not possess any special abilities (aside from perhaps intelligence, but then Dumbledore was a bigger threat in that department) which would have registered to Voldemort. Having no 'friends' himself, he would not appreciate the value of their friendship and love in Harry's quest. From Voldemort's position, I don't think Ron and Hermione would have been high on his radar compared to most of the Order, except when they might lead him to Harry. Which possibly proved a fatal error for Voldemort.

 

I also love what you said (Jon) about Dumbledore and Sirius leaving their marks with what they bequeathed to Harry - again, symbols of affection as much as protection.

 

Gah, I love these books.

 

Katharine, are you like a Harry Potter GENIUS or something?  You hit on it perfectly expressing how young Tom Riddle would have been capable of appreciating the power of young wizards or witches, but I think your original comment (Voldemort thinking of Ron and Hermione as children) was closer to the truth, as his appreciation was for ELITE young talent.  With his blindness to friendships he never took the time to look at Harry's friends and appreciate that Hermione possessed that elite talent or he possibly WOULD have viewed her as a threat.  While Ron was a threat to him (destructed one of the horcruxes) I do not think Voldemort would have ever appreciated Ron as such because of what you already stated. 

 

One thing that I have not discussed often about the series but I think is extremely interesting is that the two children who we could really point to as having a bad side to them in Dudely and Draco were somewhat redeemed by the end of the series. They both showed a measure of contrition near the end and I wonder if that was a commentary on the fact that despite poor parenting, people can still control their own path in life and choose good over evil, OR if she did not want to leave the door open for a future enemy for Harry?  Essentially by redeeming an adolescent Dudley and Draco, Rowling could bring more closure to the series and prevent fan speculation somewhat on a future series (at least as it pertains to the characters in the original generation of stories).  *shrugs*

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I love this discussion!!! Ok now that the tornado weather has died down back to computer :)

 

I remember seeing OOTP and I immediately thought when Voldemort was looking down at Harry telling him he would lose everything (I swear it meant he was going after R/Hr).

 

When you really do think about it (as you both have been saying DW and Jon) Voldemort really did make the biggest mistake of his life (thank God) in not going after R/Hr. R/Hr were Harry's glue-Hermione was the brains, Ron was the back up muscle (come on we know Ron was strong!!!! :)). He would have died for Harry (but as well for Hermione).

 

I dont know...I mean I know Hermione chose to stay with Harry because she knew that defeating Voldemort was what they had to do (with or without Ron) but I also believe Hermione really didnt think Ron would leave them. I think this was Hermione's second worst nightmare (Ron leaving her). I think Hermione thought Ron would cool off when he left and return to her (and Harry too). I really think that if Hermione had to choose between saving Ron or Harry, I think she would pick Ron (albeit Ron would probably beg her to save Harry). She loved Ron too much-this was her soulmate (as close as soulmates can get), the future daddy of her kids. So in my opinion, I think she would save Ron. Ron no question-save Hermione...look at in DH scene when Ron comes out of hiding to save Hermione from Bellatrix. Ron knew revealing themselves would mean revealing Harry. But he didnt care. To me that says he put Hermione's life ahead of Harry's (not in a mean way or negative way but just that was the way).

 

Harry was a celebrity-but chose to stay hidden from it. I think though to a POINT he didnt mind it at times. "But I am the Chosen One" (HBP) ;) He was surrounded by celebrities when we think about it: Dumbledore (Greatest Wizard of all time), Sirius (cause celebre), James and Lily Potter, Lockhart, and yes to an extent Voldemort. But Harry could have chosen to become a jerk, choose people like Malfoy to run around with, etc. But he didnt...why? His parents' love for him helped him to see what they did for him that he should do things for the greater good (in this case destroying Voldemort).

 

Keep up the discussion ;)

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Yes Jon, 'genius' would be an appropriate term. ;):king:  :P

Great points from both of you - I love that Dudley and Draco were redeemable not least because it gave them layers which helped shape them into three-dimensional characters. JKR was always careful to ensure that her characters were multi-dimensional, and a major moral in the series is that there is potential for good and bad in everyone - it depends on the individual's choice. Harry and Voldemort are the two most obvious examples of children from a similar background (both orphans) who took very different directions in life. Snape, of course, is the pivotal character in choosing between good and bad. Even Dumbledore, practically the embodiment of 'good' for most of the series, was shown to be tempted towards another path. It would have been easy for Dudley or Draco to follow in their parents' footsteps, but the growth in character they show throughout the series, and the ability to form their own opinions, are excellent examples of people being defined by the choices they make, not the lives they were born into. I get the impression that this was a notion quite important to JKR - especially considering her focus on fighting discrimination with the likes of 'mudblood'/muggle hatred and S.P.E.W. One of my favourite parts of the epilogue is Harry and Draco's civilised 'nod' to eachother... a subtle but meaningful symbolism of the growth in both their characters and the possibility that people can change.

 

Kristen, you're totally right. Harry could so easily have chosen to become 'a jerk'. (The movie version is so prevalent in my mind that I can't quite recall how the scene happens in the book - I think it's perhaps on the Hogwarts Express rather than in the Entrance Hall, but I may be wrong?) But Harry's refusal to accept Draco's offer of friendship is quite a defining moment in his character. I often wonder how different the series would have been had Harry chosen to become friends with Draco instead of Ron. Knowing nothing of the wizarding world, it would have been easy for him to have been swayed by Draco's guidance, but I think Harry's strength of character in deciding Draco's discrimination against Ron was wrong and not siding with it, was quite remarkable. Referring to an earlier discussion, I wonder if had he grown up in a wizarding family, he would have placed more value in blood 'purity'? In a way, I think his childhood with the Dursleys actually helped stand him in good stead for this situation - perhaps he recognised Draco's similarity to Dudley and it reminded him of the Dursley's own inferior treatment of him? Harry certainly seems to have an inbuilt sense of justice - perhaps his background helped to influence that.

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DW!!!! :) I had to copy/paste this whole thing ya said (even though I loved everything ya said but this stood out the most). It would have been easy for Dudley or Draco to follow in their parents' footsteps, but the growth in character they show throughout the series, and the ability to form their own opinions, are excellent examples of people being defined by the choices they make, not the lives they were born into. I get the impression that this was a notion quite important to JKR - especially considering her focus on fighting discrimination with the likes of 'mudblood'/muggle hatred and S.P.E.W. One of my favourite parts of the epilogue is Harry and Draco's civilised 'nod' to eachother... a subtle but meaningful symbolism of the growth in both their characters and the possibility that people can change.

 

I never thought of that-Draco and Dudley being so similar...they did indeed get away from their parents' notions...yes the "nod" was their way of saying we are not friends, but we can be civil towards each other.

 

Kristen, you're totally right. Harry could so easily have chosen to become 'a jerk'. (The movie version is so prevalent in my mind that I can't quite recall how the scene happens in the book - I think it's perhaps on the Hogwarts Express rather than in the Entrance Hall, but I may be wrong?) But Harry's refusal to accept Draco's offer of friendship is quite a defining moment in his character. I often wonder how different the series would have been had Harry chosen to become friends with Draco instead of Ron. Knowing nothing of the wizarding world, it would have been easy for him to have been swayed by Draco's guidance, but I think Harry's strength of character in deciding Draco's discrimination against Ron was wrong and not siding with it, was quite remarkable. Referring to an earlier discussion, I wonder if had he grown up in a wizarding family, he would have placed more value in blood 'purity'? In a way, I think his childhood with the Dursleys actually helped stand him in good stead for this situation - perhaps he recognised Draco's similarity to Dudley and it reminded him of the Dursley's own inferior treatment of him? Harry certainly seems to have an inbuilt sense of justice - perhaps his background helped to influence that.

 

OHHHHH what would have happened??? That is why Ron was so necessary to Harry-he showed Harry what true friendship was about-he didnt care about Harry's celebrity, he didnt care about what others thought of Harry...note too he also didnt care what others thought of himself being best friends with a Muggle born witch (one he would eventually fall madly in love with ;)). Draco and Harry-hmmm...that would have been an interesting friendship. But yes I think when Harry saw how Draco treated Ron, it screamed "DUDLEY" at him and knew right away GET OUT and be friends with Ron.

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DW, not only should I have said Genius, but exceptionally HUMBLE as well! :P

 

Kristin and Katharine, ITA with you both.  Harry's exposure to Dudley was a major heads up to Draco's character right from the start.

 

Thank you for your point in the epilogue Katharine regarding the "nod".  I totally do not remember that having read the series twice now.  Perhaps it's my near hatred of the epilogue that has driven it from my memory.  While I was never fond of the idea of an epilogue in the series, if it were done (as it was :P), I would have preferred that it come off like something more than just a "nod" to Potter fans for their loyalty (in my estimation).  It sounds a bit disingenuous for me to be so harsh on the epilogue and perhaps I am acting spoiled about it.  I just loved the series so much, so hopefully in being critical of it I do not detract at all from the high esteem to which I hold JKR's masterwork. :doh: (sorry Ms. Rowling)

 

Ron and Harry's (probably best saved for the Ron and Harry thread >.< but the convo is here... and I'll tie it in... trust me ;) ) relationship was as any great friendship requires: two people who see the great hearts in one another, accept their differences, and help one another overcome their weaknesses and address their flaws to become even better people.  It is easy to focus on the fact that Ron wanted to come back to Hermione when he disapperated (In the Deathly Hallows), and while that was whole-heartedly the truth, upon leaving he also realized the importance of the mission and even more-so the importance of his loyalty to his friend Harry.  He made a commitment to Harry and his reconginition of Harry's true friendship was part of what helped Ron to keep that commitment .  When Ron returned he was hopeful for Hermione's forgiveness and for her love as he always was, but he knew he owed Harry, more than anything.  Not the kind of owing a person where they have an expectation of you, but when you owe someone due to your own expectations of yourself because someone else has been a true friend to you.  Ron's love for Hermione brought him back.  If Hermione and Harry loved one another he was willing to give them his blessing.  The only way that was possible was because of his love for Harry.  His love for Harry allowed him to swallow his pride.  He knew that Harry was worthy of Hermione's love.  When Ron came back, Hermione knew that Ron was worthy of hers.  That is why it's the pivitol moment of their romance to me.  Hermione loved Ron as much for what he was willing to do for Harry as she did for what he was willing to do for her.  Also evidenced in the book with his genuine concern for the House Elves. 

 

I (being a guy) often focus on Ron and Harry, and often times I fail to give Hermione her due.  Hermione is not simply smart, she is also incredibly selfless.  Hermione places others needs before her own more-so than any character in the Potter series IMO.  It is also if not the single trait she values most highly in another, than one of the traits she values most in another.  I'd be interested to here from the women here what they think of Hermione.  I apologize if it has been discussed at length here before and I have failed to really digest it.  I realize that most of my threads discuss what I value in Ron and Harry.  I think it is because I can relate better and understand better some of the struggles they both go through.  Hermione is so complex to me.  And that really has little if anything to do with her intelligence.  It has a lot more to do with her selflessness.  I never got the "why me?" sense from Hermione in the series.  That's baffling to me.  I certainly saw it from Ron and Harry.  I've certainly felt it myself.  I think I have a mental block to Hermione's flaws.  In a way she seems perfect.  I know she is not and that JKR's intention was not to create a "perfect" character.  Sometimes I think that Ron thought of Hermione that way, and it in part played into his self confidence issues.  Is that me overanalyzing?  Might there be any truth to that?  I can't wait to hear your (our wize HP women) opinions. 

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