ling Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Yeah I wasn't saying "picture" like "picture" but of an invasive photo. If a doctor set up a camera in their room and took photos of their patients in states of undress, they'd go to jail. If a man went into a ladies' dressing room and took a photo under the door, again he'd be charged as a criminal. But a man (or woman, although seems to be less common) can waltz up with a telephoto lens aimed directly up a celebrity woman's skirt and get away with it. Link to post Share on other sites
Jonny Carinthia Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) Yeah I wasn't saying "picture" like "picture" but of an invasive photo. If a doctor set up a camera in their room and took photos of their patients in states of undress, they'd go to jail. If a man went into a ladies' dressing room and took a photo under the door, again he'd be charged as a criminal. But a man (or woman, although seems to be less common) can waltz up with a telephoto lens aimed directly up a celebrity woman's skirt and get away with it. But, again. It seems to me that there is no law against such assaults in Great Britain. Or is it so difficult the get them to court?Jo, can you tell us about the law in such cases? Edited December 6, 2012 by Jonny Carinthia Link to post Share on other sites
Sacred_Path Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 The idea of a 'crotch of public interest' is a bit disturbing, indeed. Link to post Share on other sites
Jonny Carinthia Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 The idea of a 'crotch of public interest' is a bit disturbing, indeed. I agree, but such pictures are punishable under Austrian law. Not punishable are the pics from the beginning of this thread. Because Emma would be seen as "Person of public interest". But if she would live here in Austria, she would have agreements for years with the paps and no problems at all. Link to post Share on other sites
Jo. Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 As patient of student I must agree that my picture is taken (speaking for Austria). There is a special form to fill in. For politicians, artists, athlets ecc. the Austrian law knows the term "Person of public interest". If you regarded to be such person, the right "on your own picture" is different then to a "pedestrian on the street".Putting the Law aside. Your opinion is just that Emma should smile at the paps instead of looking annoyed at them? As Ling pointed out, the moment Emma turned 18, she was abused by the paps. She innocently got into a car with no intention of flashing her undergarments to the camera's (she was even with her Dad for goodness sake!). Had the repulsive, vile pap(s) that got ON THE FLOOR with a zoom lens to get a picture up her skirt been a human being with feelings - then we would never have had an upskirt shot anyway. It's not like she intentioanlly exposed herself. After your privacy has been violated in a way like this, WHY would you want to SMILE at these scumbags and make them think that you enjoy having them take a picture? Emma does not need to act "friendly" towards the paps, she is always very good to fans on the street - the people that matter - so as long as that's the case, then why does it bother you so much that she doesn't smile? You will find that NO OTHER female on this forum would smile. The only people that enjoy it are the relaity TV 'stars' that court this attention because it is what they are 'famous' for. Link to post Share on other sites
ling Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 I agree, but such pictures are punishable under Austrian law. Not punishable are the pics from the beginning of this thread. Because Emma would be seen as "Person of public interest". But if she would live here in Austria, she would have agreements for years with the paps and no problems at all. So you agree that it's awful but you still justify that the paparazzi are part of her job and therefore have a right to violate her because there's no law? There are countries where it's legal to kill your daughter, should we all just stand around like "oh there's no law against it so I guess that's okay?" or do you think some anger toward the matter is warranted? Link to post Share on other sites
Jonny Carinthia Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 So you agree that it's awful but you still justify that the paparazzi are part of her job and therefore have a right to violate her because there's no law? There are countries where it's legal to kill your daughter, should we all just stand around like "oh there's no law against it so I guess that's okay?" or do you think some anger toward the matter is warranted? The trouble is: if you have no real possibility to avoid things (speaking in general), you have to cope with them. I say the woman in the next flat drives me crazy because of her cooking with garlic, but as long as there is no law against garlic, I have to find ways to cope with that (close the window). Paparazzi are photopgraphers, doing their jobs. Not judging in which way. In which way is a question of the newspapers, the editors and THE PUBLIC, buying newspapers with pictures in question. If nobody would buy these newspapers, the question would be solved very quickly. But as long as it is not clearly forbidden to take such pictures, it will happen. This has nothing to do with common sence or the right behaviour, because both things are killed by one word: MONEY. It's a killer-argument to compare such pictures with the killing of daughters, but we all know that it happens. But then you can discuss abortion, too. And it is difficult to change such "traditions" (horrific for us, but maybe "normal" for the people, living them) from one day to another. As Ling pointed out, the moment Emma turned 18, she was abused by the paps. She innocently got into a car with no intention of flashing her undergarments to the camera's (she was even with her Dad for goodness sake!). Had the repulsive, vile pap(s) that got ON THE FLOOR with a zoom lens to get a picture up her skirt been a human being with feelings - then we would never have had an upskirt shot anyway. It's not like she intentioanlly exposed herself. Unfortunatly you did not answer my question, if there is actual a law against such pics. I think not, because otherwise the would not be made.I think you want that the paps are saying: "Ok, we are bad people. It will not happen again." THIS will not happen. Because the are getting MONEY for it, and MONEY is the best argument to behave crazy. And Emma: I think, she is a smart and intelligent woman. Did she really thought that it would not happen to her? Link to post Share on other sites
Jo. Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Unfortunatly you did not answer my question, if there is actual a law against such pics. I think not, because otherwise the would not be made.Actually no, you did not answer mine. This conversation didn't start about what the law is, but you just commented that Emma should smile in pap shots. So I asked you if you really think she should smile and encourage the very same people that abused her when she was 18 by trying to take photos of her private parts?It seems you always try and dance around the subject when anyone asks you if you think Emma DESERVES this treatment? (i.e: to have a photogropher lay on the the floor and put a camera lens up her skirt)? And Emma: I think, she is a smart and intelligent woman. Did she really thought that it would not happen to her?Wow. Just Wow.<sarcasm> Yes, i'm sure everyday since she was 9 she has been thinking/waiting for the day a paparrazi get on the floor and take a picture up her skirt. </sarcasm> Link to post Share on other sites
Jonny Carinthia Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Actually no, you did not answer mine. This conversation didn't start about what the law is, but you just commented that Emma should smile in pap shots. So I asked you if you really think she should smile and encourage the very same people that abused her when she was 18 by trying to take photos of her private parts?It seems you always try and dance around the subject when anyone asks you if you think Emma DESERVES this treatment? (i.e: to have a photogropher lay on the the floor and put a camera lens up her skirt)? Wow. Just Wow.<sarcasm> Yes, i'm sure everyday since she was 9 she has been thinking/waiting for the day a paparrazi get on the floor and take a picture up her skirt. </sarcasm> The question is not simply if somebody deserves a treatment, but how he/she copes with things, happening in life. You know my story, Jo, and do you really think I am under the impression that I deserved, what happend? But it happend, and I had to cope with it. I made my decisions, changed a lot of things and see the world now a little bit different. Of course it is not right to get down in front of Emma or every other woman on the floor to get pics of panties, private parts...... But answer me, why DOES it happen? Why can a man go down on the pavement and make such pictures without any consequences? Why can a newspaper print such pics without consequences? This are the questions! No, she did not think about it from the age of nine. But you cannot tell me, that her parents did not thought about it. Or her management. Or her publicist. Such behaviour of the press is "normal standard" in Great Britian, as far as I can see it from here, so you will tell me that nobody in her team ever thought about it what would happen if this pretty girl becomes 18? Whow, if this is really so, I have overestimated her parents and her team a lot..... Link to post Share on other sites
ling Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) I think, again, you put a lot of pressure on her team to control something that should not happen to any female and doesn't just happen to Emma. And you seem to excuse the perpetrators a lot instead of saying "this is NOT okay and she SHOULD take a stand against it." Again, asking Emma to smile for people who assaulted her (and yes taking photos of someone's private areas without their permission is actual, legitimate sexual assault) is just as bad as asking a girl who was touched inappropriately against her will to apologize for wearing a short skirt. It's wrong. Edited December 6, 2012 by ling Link to post Share on other sites
Jonny Carinthia Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) I think, again, you put a lot of pressure on her team to control something that should not happen to any female and doesn't just happen to Emma. And you seem to excuse the perpetrators a lot instead of saying "this is NOT okay and she SHOULD take a stand against it." Team: for such events and circumstances I have a team. If I have to think about every aspect of my career by myself, I need to team. Ling, it is not ok but it is not forbidden, either. So it is also ok if celebs in GB are standing up against it and trying to change the law. But until the moment this happens, you should handle the "thing" in a positive way. YOU and other have the opinion, "handling" means "ignoring, looking angry, don't pay attention". I have the opinion: "use them for my own interests (if you have one)". This is all. And sorry if my point of view led to the picture, that I would agree to indecent pictures. But they are a criminal offence in my country I didn't think about that "special" aspect until this afternoon. In this case: sorry. Edited December 6, 2012 by Jonny Carinthia Link to post Share on other sites
Sacred_Path Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 No, she did not think about it from the age of nine. But you cannot tell me, that her parents did not thought about it. Or her management. Or her publicist. Such behaviour of the press is "normal standard" in Great Britian, as far as I can see it from here, so you will tell me that nobody in her team ever thought about it what would happen if this pretty girl becomes 18? Whow, if this is really so, I have overestimated her parents and her team a lot..... I think it's very possible she had no idea what she had signed up for as far as paps go. She's said that her parents aren't interested in the movie industry. I don't think they necessarily talked about things like 'remember to always wear underwear'. She'd never done raunchy photos before, she was playing a prim and proper schoolgirl. Nothing indicated that paps would be trying to get under her skirt as soon as she turns legal. Link to post Share on other sites
ling Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 LOL at the idea of using a traumatic event to someone's "advantage", or "to further their career", AS IF anyone would want to do that. Link to post Share on other sites
Jonny Carinthia Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 I think it's very possible she had no idea what she had signed up for as far as paps go. She's said that her parents aren't interested in the movie industry. I don't think they necessarily talked about things like 'remember to always wear underwear'. She'd never done raunchy photos before, she was playing a prim and proper schoolgirl. Nothing indicated that paps would be trying to get under her skirt as soon as she turns legal. Well, there are only a few hints how her parents brought her up, but I think they did a lot to keep her on track. I remember her remark about her mother ("she was sometimes frightening") and you can read the advice of her mother about what to talk even on the front page of this site. Her father looked into her financial matters and she always said that she was brought up in a "normal" family. And I think too, all the young actors of HP had extensive training how to deal with the media (looking at her perfect performances in her early talkshow-appearances).So I do not think, they had really no idea, because the paps were there also befor her 18th birthday... Not on the pavement lens upwards, but they were there..... LOL at the idea of using a traumatic event to someone's "advantage", or "to further their career", AS IF anyone would want to do that. It's so funny to discuss this with you, ling. You never mad a bad experience during work or in private and thought: Oh, the next time I do it another way to be in charge when it comes to trouble? Link to post Share on other sites
Sacred_Path Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Well, there are only a few hints how her parents brought her up, but I think they did a lot to keep her on track. I remember her remark about her mother ("she was sometimes frightening") and you can read the advice of her mother about what to talk even on the front page of this site. Her father looked into her financial matters and she always said that she was brought up in a "normal" family. And I think too, all the young actors of HP had extensive training how to deal with the media (looking at her perfect performances in her early talkshow-appearances).So I do not think, they had really no idea, because the paps were there also befor her 18th birthday... Not on the pavement lens upwards, but they were there..... just remember one thing, 'my parents never told me that I'm beautiful'. And you think they discussed pap shots of her pubic region in detail? Link to post Share on other sites
Jonny Carinthia Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) just remember one thing, 'my parents never told me that I'm beautiful'. And you think they discussed pap shots of her pubic region in detail? Well, if I say to my son that he looks good and smart, he is not happy and thinks that I am kidding.... No but I definitly think that they talked a lot how to behave in public. It is my picture, that her parents are very good parents, because they really cared for her and brought her up in a very good way. This is the reason why she is how she is. But again: I cannot imagine that NOBODY, parents, team, management, lawyers, publicists ecc. never talked to her about the danger of paparazzi and how to deal with them. Maybe she was under the impression that she can handle it, but it was a mistake. Edited December 6, 2012 by Jonny Carinthia Link to post Share on other sites
ling Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 It's so funny to discuss this with you, ling. You never mad a bad experience during work or in private and thought: Oh, the next time I do it another way to be in charge when it comes to trouble? I mean, not to get too heavy or personal, since I DO enjoy my privacy as well, but as someone who has experienced sexual assault first hand, I find it offensive to think that I should be expected to consider what I should do better the next time I experience the same kind of traumatic situation. Link to post Share on other sites
Sacred_Path Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 No but I definitly think that they talked a lot how to behave in public. It is my picture, that her parents are very good parents, because they really cared for her and brought her up in a very good way. This is the reason why she is how she is. But again: I cannot imagine that NOBODY, parents, team, management, lawyers, publicists ecc. never talked to her about the danger of paparazzi and how to deal with them. Maybe she was under the impression that she can handle it, but it was a mistake. noone's questioning the quality of her upbringing. But the reality is, neither she nor her parents like the side effects of fame much. Did they talk about it, maybe. Maybe not. Either way, I don't think they're naive or dense because of it. I would totally understand it if they tried to block out the whole celebrity thing and tried to establish more normalcy for Emma in her private life. Link to post Share on other sites
Jonny Carinthia Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) I mean, not to get too heavy or personal, since I DO enjoy my privacy as well, but as someone who has experienced sexual assault first hand, I find it offensive to think that I should be expected to consider what I should do better the next time I experience the same kind of traumatic situation. Sorry to hear that, ling. Now I understand some of your reactions a little bit better... I understand you point of view that such things should not happen, but unfortunatly they do happen. And if you could handle the situation, would you do it or not? noone's questioning the quality of her upbringing. But the reality is, neither she nor her parents like the side effects of fame much. Did they talk about it, maybe. Maybe not. Either way, I don't think they're naive or dense because of it. I would totally understand it if they tried to block out the whole celebrity thing and tried to establish more normalcy for Emma in her private life. I think they are highly professional and they had intensive and detailed talks with the people from Warner Broth. There are so many questions, but we will get no answer. Did somebody talk to her about it or not, did she expect such things or not, did somebody gave her hints to avoid such situations..... We will never know.... Edited December 6, 2012 by Jonny Carinthia Link to post Share on other sites
Jo. Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 No but I definitly think that they talked a lot how to behave in public. Yes they probably did. About how THEY should behave, not how the paps should behave. and Emma has never behaved badly in public, so what's your point? Link to post Share on other sites
Jonny Carinthia Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) Yes they probably did. About how THEY should behave, not how the paps should behave. and Emma has never behaved badly in public, so what's your point? My point is: I cannot change the paps from one day to another, because this is simply not possible. So I have only two possibilities: let the things go as they go or take charge of the situation by doing things to avoid indecent or creepy pictures. I know you will say "no woman or actress should be in need to do things to avoid indecent or creepy pics", but it still happens. Emma has of course never behaved badly in public (could she ever behave badly - I cannot imagine it ), but I think there are steps you can take to minimize bad pictures. This was my point when I said "learn how to get out of a car propperly". Edited December 6, 2012 by Jonny Carinthia Link to post Share on other sites
Neve Posted December 6, 2012 Share Posted December 6, 2012 Of course it is part of their job; they are persons of public interest. And they want a good image and good publicity and under normal circumstances they pay a lot of money for that. Otherwise they would wether be famous or known. And as long as it is not prohibited by law I would suggest to smile a little, avoiding complaining about "creepy pap-shots" even on BBC1.I'm sorry, but no, actors are not "persons of public interest" in any way that would justify the world wanting, let alone needing, to know details about their private lives. Seriously, what good does it do society to know what club Emma partied in or who she had lunch with? None. Therefore, not a public interest matter.I also think you make a really wrong correlation between being an artist and wanting to be famous. Somebody like Michelle Williams for instance has no interest in being famous, or even having a good image - she only wants to do a good job in good movies and she doesn't seem to care what people think about the way she leads her life. Somebody like Paris Hilton, on the other hand, craves publicity because she has no talent whatsoever and being in gossip mags is her only way of existing in the public eye, something which she, along with countless other starlets, seems to think is an end in itself. I think Emma has stated often enough that she's in this industry for the acting, not for the fame game. So I don't see why she should pretend otherwise. And I don't see why we should pretend she should do so either. As far as I'm concerned, I really admire her - I don't think I could have dealt with the privacy intrusions she's had to deal with, and from such a young age too. Would YOU want the world to see shots of your underwear, to read your private emails or to know about your breakups?! Life is difficult enough as it is. Don't you understand it only makes things more painful and/or embarrassing if you have to deal with what happens in your life both in private AND in public? Don't you understand we don't own people just because we pay a few euros/pounds/dollars to watch their movies?! Emma is probably one of the very few celebs who always try to smile and be polite towards paps. She's shown this countless times in the past. But can we please wrap ourselves around the fact that she is human? She can't always smile to people who keep popping up out of the blue calling her name every single time, so they can have a snapshot of her and then judge her outfit like a prize dog, or her hair or her make up or her personality based on how she responds to them.What if she had a bad day? Does she have to "smile a little" just for some people who don't even respect her and she knows that? I mean, would you? Because I wouldn't.I totally agree with you. I consider myself a rather decent, polite and friendly human being but on some days I just can't bring myself to smile or make the extra effort to be nice to random people. I think most of us are that way. So why should people who get harassed on a whole different level be held accountable to an even higher standard than the one we hold ourselves accountable for? Link to post Share on other sites
Jonny Carinthia Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Ok, lets try again. But first - some cornerstones of the discussion. 1. We are talking about the current situation in Great Britian.2. We are talking about the fact, that the british society accepts the current behaviour of members of the press.3. We are talking about the fact, that there is no law against indecent pictures of such nature (pap-shots) in Great Britian.4. We are talking about the fact, that paps taking such pictures, editors buying such pictures and people buying newspapers with such pictures. The discussion is about the way, celebrities should cope with the current situation. I am in no way a supporter of the behaviour of paps and media people in GB, because I live in a country were such behaviour is a criminal offense and punishable. My question was: in which way can a celebrity in GB cope with such a behaviour, which cannot be stopped from one day to another. Diana's death could not stop it and even a angry face of a wonderful young actress will not stop it. And we will see a real hype when the baby of Will and Kate is born. My point of view is now, that a celebrity should avoid it to be the content of a bad pictures in the media. There are guidlines how you can achieve this. If a celebrity stick to that rules or not, is a question they must answer for themselfes. You may say now, that it is not right, that a celebrity must take action against such pics, f.e. by getting out of a car in a way a pap has no chance to take a upskirt pic or just running to the car with a angry and ignoring face. Ok, agree. But as long as it is not possible to bring them to court (and high penalties making it unattractive for newspapers to print such pics) or that the society (we, the people) taking action against such a behaviour by condamming it and politicians making a law against it, it MIGHT be a good idea to be sensible or use the circumstances for me. In the end, even such a indecent pic remains in the archive of the press forever and can be used on purpose. The question, if a celebrity wants PR or not, is difficult to answer. I think, even Emma is proud of her presence in the media. She is a Superstar and her presence in the media are a part of her fame. Maybe she is not pushing it, but even this page is a part of a PR-system, supporting the awarness for a star. I was talking yesterday about articles about Emma in Austrian Newspapers. Four articles were about her performance in "Perks" (with pap-shots) and I think, the Austrian distributor of the movie is well aware of the fact, that there were four unpaid articles about a movie, which is promoted also with money in daily newspapers. Finally: I never blamed Emma that she is doing something wrong. She does it "her way", and I was just asking, if this way is wise. Unfortunatly she will not give us her point of view, so all other opinions - even my one - are only speculations and "second hand". Link to post Share on other sites
Sacred_Path Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 All this discussion misses a crucial point though. What's the "right" way to deal with paps, and what's the "right"/ desired result? Emma mostly wants to be left alone by paps, so what steps should she take to achieve that? Will they disappear if she poses for photos? Obviously not. It's not like they just want one nice shot and then they'll leave. Link to post Share on other sites
soulsister Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Those scumbags Rupert Murdoch/Piers Morgan should both be locked up and all their media control folded. They're partof the elitist cabal that controls the news. I love that Hugh Grant is leading the charge against this trash. He alongwith Sienna Miller, Jude Law, Jo Rowling, the McCanns(parents of little Madeline who was kidnapped in Portugal), and several in others, were in court to testify against these idiots. Link to post Share on other sites
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