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There may be a fine line between having faith or being religious. In my opinion, a religious person is someone who follows... like a religion. Performing ceremonies and being an integral part of that organization. Faith is more of a belief of a higher entity, not necessarily a God but the acknowledgment that you are not alone. Faith is what makes you get up in the morning, motivates you to get through the day and get through tough times. Religion is your faith in action, essentially.
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The way I see it (and so do a lot of Christians) is that Religion is a set in stone kind of thing. Same prayers, same words, same worship, always the same and never changes. Where as Christianity is a personal relationship with God, every prayer is different, we connect with God and the Holy Spirit through prayer and worship, what you dont get in a Religion. And faith is trusting in God to heal you, keep you safe and never harm you. I dont really see how you can debate Faith vs Religion because I see the two on a completely different page. But Religion vs Relationship I could debate a bit.
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Well yeah they're different. Hence the difference between Agnostics and religious people.

[quote name='Joe O'Connor' timestamp='1302430473' post='90653']
I dont really see how you can debate Faith vs Religion because I see the two on a completely different page.
[/quote]
But when it comes to religious people faith and religion are highly connected -practically the same thing. Religion itself presupposes faith. You can't be part of all the religious rituals, read those Holy books and believe in a particular God without having Faith in Him first. I mean the way i see it those rituals have a really deep meaning connected to your faith.
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I see what you mean, but I find that a lot of Religious people dont have that faith because its so repetitive. Where when the boundaries of Religion are gone people can grow more.
I know when I went to a Catholic school and church I found that it was hard to connect with God because it was so... ritualistic I guess.
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[font="Century Gothic"]There's faith in religion, "faith in what?" would be the question. Since religion is a cultural system of practices and rules about some belief, religious people put their faith in world things (objects, people, animals, etc.). Some Catholics, for example, put their faith in pictures, other people, statues, etc. [/font]
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Faith and religion can be two very different things. It's kind of like a square can be a rectangle but not all rectangles can be squares type of thing. With every religion comes faith, but having faith doesn't necessarily mean a person follows a set religion. In religion comes a lot of rituals and requirements, but faith doesn't necessarily have all of those requirements. That's why a lot of people prefer to just be spiritual instead of religious - there are the benefits but not all of the commitments.

Personally, I feel that faith can be a lot more ambiguous because people can make their own definitions and not have to adhere to a strict belief system. I think that it is important for people to create their own faith within themselves. This faith isn't necessarily found within a religion, but it really varies with the person. People really need to reach down and come into contact with themselves otherwise faith - in conjunction with a religion or not - is useless. It really does come from within. I forget who said that "we are our own gods". It sounds kind of cocky, but in a way it's true. Our strength and our faith is found in the depths of our souls and it's really just up to us to make ourselves happy and spiritually fulfilled.
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I definitely agree with you Karen. Faith and religion are two very different things. Everyone believes in something, well yes you can argue that atheists don't. But everyone has a certain faith. Many people believe in karma. Many people believe in some sort of energy being, but not actually G-D. However, being religious is taking your faith a step farther, it's saying that not only do I believe in something, but I am a part of something, and I am going to follow that something. I will use my own religion as an example. There are many Jews who have faith and they believe in G-D, but it stops there. But if you take a religious Jew, like me, I follow all the commandments and laws ect. That is a very different thing. I believe it is the same for every religion. There is believing in a higher being,then there is following that higher being. I think it is important to have both a strong faith and be a religious person.

Also, I do agree. Religion is nothing without faith. If you don't have that actual belief or some sort of connection, it doesn't mean anything. You have to believe in something. I just can't imagine going through life not believing in anything.
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[quote name='Arie' timestamp='1302470585' post='91110']
I definitely agree with you Karen. Faith and religion are two very different things. Everyone believes in something, well yes you can argue that atheists don't. But everyone has a certain faith. Many people believe in karma. Many people believe in some sort of energy being, but not actually G-D. However, being religious is taking your faith a step farther, it's saying that not only do I believe in something, but I am a part of something, and I am going to follow that something. I will use my own religion as an example. There are many Jews who have faith and they believe in G-D, but it stops there. But if you take a religious Jew, like me, I follow all the commandments and laws ect. That is a very different thing. I believe it is the same for every religion. There is believing in a higher being,then there is following that higher being. I think it is important to have both a strong faith and be a religious person.

Also, I do agree. Religion is nothing without faith. If you don't have that actual belief or some sort of connection, it doesn't mean anything. You have to believe in something. I just can't imagine going through life not believing in anything.
[/quote]
I think what you mean by Religion is different to what I mean. You said its taking a step further by saying you part of something, I dont see that as Religion. Thats a relationship with God to me. A Religion in my eyes, is where you go to church, say the same prayer, sing the same songs, say the same words etc. Like a cut in stone procedure, like a copy and pasted sermon every week. Where as a relationship is where each service is about something different and relevant, prayers are said on the spot and from the heart and everyone feels God in a different way. But thats just me.
Ive always found it hard to connect with God through Catholicism or a sermon that is "scripted" I guess.
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[quote name='Joe O'Connor' timestamp='1302471490' post='91124']
I think what you mean by Religion is different to what I mean. You said its taking a step further by saying you part of something, I dont see that as Religion. Thats a relationship with God to me. A Religion in my eyes, is where you go to church, say the same prayer, sing the same songs, say the same words etc. Like a cut in stone procedure, like a copy and pasted sermon every week. Where as a relationship is where each service is about something different and relevant, prayers are said on the spot and from the heart and everyone feels God in a different way. But thats just me.
Ive always found it hard to connect with God through Catholicism or a sermon that is "scripted" I guess.
[/quote]

I guess that is where my religion differs from yours then. Judaism is completely based around having a relationship with G-D. Yes, there are parts that seem copy paste, but most of it is more personal. So to me, religion is about taking my belief farther. First, I believe in G-D. then, I decide to dedicate my life to him and follow his laws. I pray and talk to him. I do different things. But, I make it mean something to me. I do everything with meaning behind it. Not just simple actions. My actions mean nothing if I do not have belief behind them. When we go to synoguge we don't listen to a sermon like you do in church. We pray. Some is prayer as a group, some is personal. But everyone is saying something. So to me religion is taking everything you believe in and putting it towards an action.
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[quote name='Arie' timestamp='1302473094' post='91138']
I guess that is where my religion differs from yours then. Judaism is completely based around having a relationship with G-D. Yes, there are parts that seem copy paste, but most of it is more personal. So to me, religion is about taking my belief farther. First, I believe in G-D. then, I decide to dedicate my life to him and follow his laws. I pray and talk to him. I do different things. But, I make it mean something to me. I do everything with meaning behind it. Not just simple actions. My actions mean nothing if I do not have belief behind them. When we go to synoguge we don't listen to a sermon like you do in church. We pray. Some is prayer as a group, some is personal. But everyone is saying something. So to me religion is taking everything you believe in and putting it towards an action.
[/quote]
Is it that our beliefs are different? or our interpretation of what Religion means? because from what Ive read, you worship like I do, you just call it Religion. Where as I dont.
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[quote name='Joe O'Connor' timestamp='1302471490' post='91124']
A Religion in my eyes, is where you go to church, say the same prayer, sing the same songs, say the same words etc. Like a cut in stone procedure, like a copy and pasted sermon every week.
[/quote]
You make Christianity seem like it's some sort of materialised procedure. Like, us Christian are little robots who visit the same place and hear the same things every sunday without understanding them, without praying? Excuse me, i don\t wanna seem blunt but you give the wrong impression about Christianity to people who don;t know it well so you make Arie think that Judaism differs from Christianity because Judaism is based on having a relationship with God? Whereas Christianity isn't? Please now, i hope you mean something else.
([quote name='Arie' timestamp='1302473094' post='91138']
I guess that is where my religion differs from yours then. [b]Judaism is completely based around having a relationship with G-D.[/b]
[/quote])
My religion is completely based on a relationship with God as well. Yes my religion, not my relationship with God. We go to Church, we pray! We listen to the chants, we pray! We get lost in the Church, we come closer to God, we feel, we pray! We're not what you said above. My religion is a living religion.
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[quote name='something better' timestamp='1302475077' post='91205']
You make Christianity seem like it's some sort of materialised procedure. Like, us Christian are little robots who visit the same place and hear the same things every sunday without understanding them, without praying? Excuse me, i don\t wanna seem blunt but you give the wrong impression about Christianity to people who don;t know it well so you make Arie think that Judaism differs from Christianity because Judaism is based on having a relationship with God? Whereas Christianity isn't? Please now, i hope you mean something else.
[/quote]
Dude....
Im a Christian, I pray to God every night, I live for God. I chose to be baptized myself on the 29th of November 2009. Im not talking about Christianity being a Religion, Ive said a few times in this topic alone that Christianity is a relationship with God, Im talking about Religions that dont have that relationship, ones that are just a Religion. And Ive never targeted Judaism, Ive talked about the difference between personal prayers said at the time, in the moment and written prayers, Ive talked about sermons that are always the same ever week and sermons that differ.

Sorry if Ive come off in a negative or hostile way, but Ive never meant to, I respect all beliefs and how people worship God. Ive just said that I have trouble connecting with God in sermons that are the same every week.

But I do apologize if Ive insulted you, Arie or anyone.
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[quote name='Joe O'Connor' timestamp='1302478262' post='91283']
Dude....
Im a Christian, I pray to God every night, I live for God. I chose to be baptized myself on the 29th of November 2009. Im not talking about Christianity being a Religion, Ive said a few times in this topic alone that Christianity is a relationship with God, Im talking about Religions that dont have that relationship, ones that are just a Religion. And Ive never targeted Judaism, Ive talked about the difference between personal prayers said at the time, in the moment and written prayers, Ive talked about sermons that are always the same ever week and sermons that differ.

Sorry if Ive come off in a negative or hostile way, but Ive never meant to, I respect all beliefs and how people worship God. Ive just said that I have trouble connecting with God in sermons that are the same every week.

But I do apologize if Ive insulted you, Arie or anyone.
[/quote]
The last person you insulted here was Arie or her religion. On the contrary. Anyways you didn't talk about [i]religions in general[/i]that don't have a relationship with God, you clearly mentioned churches and sermons so you can refer to one particular religion, and the way you made it seem was insulting to my eyes, because the worst thing you can say about a religion is that it's a copy pasted procedure with no meaning. Which is actually the other way round. In my religion Church and what happens in Church is a like a living thing. My religion equals 100% relationship with God, 100% understanding, concentration and prayer. Not a copy pasted sermon every week. I'm so attached to it and what it represents so i might come off a bit agressive.
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[quote name='something better' timestamp='1302478866' post='91294']
The last person you insulted here was Arie or her religion. On the contrary. Anyways you didn't talk about [i]religions in general[/i]that don't have a relationship with God, you clearly mentioned churches and sermons so you can refer to one particular religion, and the way you made it seem was insulting to my eyes, because the worst thing you can say about a religion is that it's a copy pasted procedure with no meaning. Which is actually the other way round. In my religion Church and what happens in Church is a like a living thing. My religion equals 100% relationship with God, 100% understanding, concentration and prayer. Not a copy pasted sermon every week. I'm so attached to it and what it represents so i might come off a bit agressive.
[/quote]
May I ask what your belief is?

Religion has so many different meanings to many people. To me Religion is this.
[i]Go to church
Opening prayer
Opening songs
Sermon
Written prayer
Songs
Ending prayer[/i]
And then next week do the same thing without changing the sermon, prayer or songs.
I dont know if this is how you worship? but it doesnt do it for me.

The church I go to plays different songs every week, The sermons will be different, There was one about the call of the church, a series about God given gifts, a series about the Occult and its dangers etc. And the prayers change for the topic of the day.
I dont call this Religion, I call this a relationship with God because it is forever changing and never the same, you dont get used to it and you never know what God will do next.

And by church Im not just referring to Christianity and the denominations of Christianity, because really a Mosque, Temple or any other place where people meet to worship a God is a church. I googled the defintion of a church and got this "Public worship of God or a religious service in such a building". I dont target Christians when I say "church".

Do you mean that the last person on the list of people I have insulted is Arie? or that I havent insulted her at all?
I am truly sorry if Ive offended you or her. Edited by Joe O'Connor
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[quote name='Joe O'Connor' timestamp='1302480108' post='91298']
May I ask what your belief is? [/quote]
Christian Orthodox.

[quote name='Joe O'Connor' timestamp='1302480108' post='91298']
Religion has so many different meanings to many people. To me Religion is this.
[i]Go to church
Opening prayer
Opening songs
Sermon
Written prayer
Songs
Ending prayer[/i]
And then next week do the same thing without changing the sermon, prayer or songs.
[/quote]
But religion [i]IS[/i] relationship with God. Religion presupposes faith and for you to be mentally connected with what you believe in. People who just go to church and do all those you stated above just because they [b]HAVE[/b] to, well those are not religious people imo. I can't come up with a term for them.


[quote name='Joe O'Connor' timestamp='1302480108' post='91298']
And by church Im not just referring to Christianity and the denominations of Christianity, because really a Mosque, Temple or any other place where people meet to worship a God is a church. I googled the defintion of a church and got this "Public worship of God or a religious service in such a building". I dont target Christians when I say "church". [/quote]
The i got this part wrong. I had the idea that the term church was referred to Christians place of worship. Hence why we use different words for Mosque, Sinagoge etc etc. Sorry.

[quote name='Joe O'Connor' timestamp='1302480108' post='91298']
Do you mean that the last person on the list of people I have insulted is Arie? or that I havent insulted her at all?
I am truly sorry if Ive offended you or her.
[/quote]
You haven't insulted her at all.
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[quote]Is it that our beliefs are different? or our interpretation of what Religion means? because from what Ive read, you worship like I do, you just call it Religion. Where as I dont. [/quote]
Fair enough lol. Then I guess we can just agree to disagree on our opinions :P

[quote]My religion is completely based on a relationship with God as well. Yes my religion, not my relationship with God. We go to Church, we pray! We listen to the chants, we pray! We get lost in the Church, we come closer to God, we feel, we pray! We're not what you said above. My religion is a living religion[/quote]
I am sorry if I offended you in any way Hun! I was responding to what Joe wrote and that is how he made it seem to me. I am very sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that Christians don't have a relationship with G-D, I would never say something like that. I just wasn't sure if it was something that was fundamental. Thank you for correcting my views though! I much appreciate it and I apologize for my ignorance!

@Joe. don't worry, you did not offend me in any way! :D
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[quote name='something better' timestamp='1302480526' post='91301']
But religion [i]IS[/i] relationship with God. Religion presupposes faith and for you to be mentally connected with what you believe in. People who just go to church and do all those you stated above just because they [b]HAVE[/b] to, well those are not religious people imo. I can't come up with a term for them.
[/quote]
Im baptist and we always try to break away from the title of being Religious because of its stereotype, I dont know about your country, but in NZ when people hear the term a Religious they think of this
[img]http://images.wikia.com/simpsons/images/8/84/Ned_Flanders.png[/img]
So we try not to be associated with the term and use the name Christians.

[quote name='something better' timestamp='1302480526' post='91301']
The i got this part wrong. I had the idea that the term church was referred to Christians place of worship. Hence why we use different words for Mosque, Sinagoge etc etc. Sorry.
[/quote]
Sorry, I should have cleared that up a bit more...

[quote name='something better' timestamp='1302480526' post='91301']
You haven't insulted her at all.
[/quote]
[quote name='Arie' timestamp='1302480531' post='91302']
@Joe. don't worry, you did not offend me in any way! :D
[/quote]
Phew, thats a relief.
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[quote name='Arie' timestamp='1302480531' post='91302']
I am sorry if I offended you in any way Hun! I was responding to what Joe wrote and that is how he made it seem to me. I am very sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that Christians don't have a relationship with G-D, I would never say something like that. I just wasn't sure if it was something that was fundamental. Thank you for correcting my views though! I much appreciate it and I apologize for my ignorance!
[/quote]
No, you didn't offend me at all, i just used your quote as a backup answer to what i thought Joe meant, i was only referring to him.
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[quote name='Joe O'Connor' timestamp='1302481123' post='91308']
Im baptist and we always try to break away from the title of being Religious because of its stereotype, I dont know about your country, but in NZ when people hear the term a Religious they think of this
[img]http://images.wikia.com/simpsons/images/8/84/Ned_Flanders.png[/img]
So we try not to be associated with the term and use the name Christians.[/quote]

I definitely understand that!! I don't want to be looked at as crazy religious girl either. It is definitely a hard stereotype to have going around. Especially if you get compared to Flanders haha. I guess we just have to keep wishing for a world where being a religious person isn't looked at as being a weirdo. Because I know how you feel Joe, I have often felt like a Flanders myself sometimes. I know a lot of people who don't like the world religious, I don't like it all that much either when used in this way.

@Dina. Awesome! Glad I didn't offend you! Edited by Arie
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[quote name='something better' timestamp='1302475077' post='91205']
You make Christianity seem like it's some sort of materialised procedure. Like, us Christian are little robots who visit the same place and hear the same things every sunday without understanding them, without praying? Excuse me, i don\t wanna seem blunt but you give the wrong impression about Christianity to people who don;t know it well so you make Arie think that Judaism differs from Christianity because Judaism is based on having a relationship with God? Whereas Christianity isn't? Please now, i hope you mean something else.
()
My religion is completely based on a relationship with God as well. Yes my religion, not my relationship with God. We go to Church, we pray! We listen to the chants, we pray! We get lost in the Church, we come closer to God, we feel, we pray! We're not what you said above. My religion is a living religion.
[/quote]

YAYY everyone cleared their conflicts up! I wouldn't have said anything but I think that confronting different beliefs is really really REALLY important to understanding them, even if someone doesn't accept it. So good job guys *thumbs up* :D

I think Joe meant religion in a really basic sense of the word - like the ritual aspect of it. Yes religion usually includes a relationship with God (I don't think anyone would say that that's not important) but a big part of religion is going to church, temple, mosque, etc, and performing the rituals. Like in the Catholic church, it's about eating the body and blood of Christ.

That being said, the ritual as well as the relationship combined are what *really* makes religion. Religion is a super complex thing and there is no way that any religion will EVER be uncomplicated.

I also agree with you Joe, that many people try to shy away from the "Flanders" type of person, and most religion is sooooo much more than that. For example, when I say I'm catholic to people the first reaction I get from a lot of them is "uhh all priests are pedophiles. you dont believe in gay marriage and abortion?" and I'm like "okay. well firstly, not all priests are pedophiles, these pedophile are PEOPLE which happened to be PRIESTS. Secondly, I do support gay marriage, and yes, I am pro-choice." and people are just kinda like :o

There have also been many a time where I've had to forgo something because I had church, or a holy day. Perfect example: next sunday, my school is going to see Spamalot and I was all set to go, and then at church I was reminded that it is Palm Sunday and I'm reading -_- So I'm really bummed that I can't go, but hey, that's how it works sometimes.
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[font="Century Gothic"]religion IS NOT relationship with God. Religion is almost a relationship with other people. I like this definition from Wikipedia: "Religion is a cultural system that creates powerful and long-lasting meaning, by establishing symbols that relate humanity to beliefs and values". As you can see, the god doesn't make the religion; in fact, there are religion without gods.

Judaism... There are a lot of rules in there xD Nah, I have nothing with Judaism. [/font]
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Generally most people associate God with religion, I don't think you can seperate them.
Everybody sees God in a different way, and their relationship with their religion is different. Some people like to go to church/temple etc., and show their faith in public. Others prefer to have a more private faith. They are equally religious, but just show their faith in different ways.
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[quote name='Will' timestamp='1302491740' post='91363']
[font="Century Gothic"]religion IS NOT relationship with God. Religion is almost a relationship with other people. I like this definition from Wikipedia: "Religion is a cultural system that creates powerful and long-lasting meaning, by establishing symbols that relate humanity to beliefs and values". As you can see, the god doesn't make the religion; in fact, there are religion without gods.

Judaism... There are a lot of rules in there xD Nah, I have nothing with Judaism. [/font]
[/quote]

That's a great point, Will. Religion doesn't necessarily have to have a god or at least, a Western interpretation of a god, but it's something that moves through cultures and connects people. It shapes us just as much as we shape it. I think a lot of people are getting confused about putting God into the term religion. Some religions have it, others don't - but even if they don't have a god or God, they still can be religions just because it's just as much a cultural movement as well as a belief system.
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