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The R/Hr And H/Hr Debate Thread Version 5.0


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#21 GingerCat

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 09:21 PM

Rowling has often said that for the most part she is Hermione. So that is probably the reason that Hermione is described as plain or unattractive. It's a bit of self deprecation as most people don't see themselves as attractive.


The problem with that theory is that there is evidence that Hermione IS attractive. Out of all the girls in the school it was her that Viktor Krum wanted to take to the Yule Ball and a even bigger clue is McLaggen's interest in her. McLaggen isn't the type of guy who would ever go out with a girl that he didn't think was good looking and the fact that he went with Hermione to Slughorn's party shows that he finds her attractive.

#22 The Dude

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 09:36 PM

The problem with that theory is that there is evidence that Hermione IS attractive. Out of all the girls in the school it was her that Viktor Krum wanted to take to the Yule Ball and a even bigger clue is McLaggen's interest in her. McLaggen isn't the type of guy who would ever go out with a girl that he didn't think was good looking and the fact that he went with Hermione to Slughorn's party shows that he finds her attractive.

That's more of a plot hole than anything. The fact stands the books are written in third person. You're not gonna find any literary analysts that will call the books first person POV. Yes, the books spend more time telling us what Harry is thinking and feeling more than anyone else but that's because he's the protagonist. Same goes for Tom Sawyer, we hear his thoughts more than any other character because he's the protagonist but it is not written from a first person POV.

It is a literary convention, not my opinion.

#23 GingerCat

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 09:42 PM

That's more of a plot hole than anything. The fact stands the books are written in third person. You're not gonna find any literary analysts that will call the books first person POV. Yes, the books spend more time telling us what Harry is thinking and feeling more than anyone else but that's because he's the protagonist. Same goes for Tom Sawyer, we hear his thoughts more than any other character because he's the protagonist but it is not written from a first person POV.

It is a literary convention, not my opinion.


It does and in the 7 books other than a brief moment at the Yule Ball Harry never thinks Hermione is attractive.

We also know that what Harry perceives is sometimes wrong as he thought that the reason Tonks was upset in HBP was because of Sirius's death. He didn't have a clue about her relationship issues with Remus. In other words we cannot take what Harry thinks as gospel as he can be wrong.

#24 The Dude

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 09:53 PM

It does and in the 7 books other than a brief moment at the Yule Ball Harry never thinks Hermione is attractive.

We also know that what Harry perceives is sometimes wrong as he thought that the reason Tonks was upset in HBP was because of Sirius's death. He didn't have a clue about her relationship issues with Remus. In other words we cannot take what Harry thinks as gospel as he can be wrong.

This is why it's called third person limited point of view. The POV stays close to Harry because he is the protagonist (the book is named after him after all). But it does also stray into other people's POV or perspective from time to time. It is not told exclusively through Harry's eyes.

#25 GingerCat

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Posted 21 January 2011 - 09:56 PM

This is why it's called third person limited point of view. The POV stays close to Harry because he is the protagonist (the book is named after him after all). But it does also stray into other people's POV or perspective from time to time. It is not told exclusively through Harry's eyes.


Harry must be a extremely fickle person then as he only seems to fall for girls that are very attractive. According to you at least the character descriptions are not from Harry's perspective meaning that Harry does only fall for attractive girls. I don't know why you would be in favor of this as it makes Harry look like a arse.

#26 vida

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 04:35 AM

Gotta disagree here. The books are not first person POV and are definitely not Harry's POV. He is the protagonist but it is not his POV. The Harry Potter books are told from a third person limited POV. Thus the statement that Hermione is not attractive comes from the author or the teller of the story but not any one character.


And I gotta disagree with you.
The boos are definitely not told in first person, however Rowling uses a close third person narrator for the series, and it is almost exclusively told from Harry's POV.

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#27 Stan'sMommy

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 02:59 AM

It does and in the 7 books other than a brief moment at the Yule Ball Harry never thinks Hermione is attractive.

We also know that what Harry perceives is sometimes wrong as he thought that the reason Tonks was upset in HBP was because of Sirius's death. He didn't have a clue about her relationship issues with Remus. In other words we cannot take what Harry thinks as gospel as he can be wrong.


Well I think Harry saw the girl Krum was with as pretty but he didn't know it was Hermione. Think it is written something like that. His jaw drops almost when he realizes it is Hermione. But yeah... :)
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#28 jmc

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 03:29 AM

Harry must be a extremely fickle person then as he only seems to fall for girls that are very attractive. According to you at least the character descriptions are not from Harry's perspective meaning that Harry does only fall for attractive girls. I don't know why you would be in favor of this as it makes Harry look like a arse.


_Everything_ (except the chapters without Harry) in the books is described through a 'Harry filter', Harry's opinions color the descriptions.

Harry doesn't describe Hermione's looks in very flattering terms, and he never ever thinks of her romantically... their personalities simply don't match and that doubtlessly also affects how he views her appearance. Ron's description of Hermione would be quite different, without a doubt.

Harry seems to like athletic girls (initially he gets to know Cho as a Ravenclaw Quidditch player), both Ginny and Cho fit the description. For Harry, teary and overtly emotional girls are a turn off... which explains the later problems with Cho... and also why he comments in HBP how wonderful it is that Ginny isn't such a girl. This of course is yet another strike against Hermione, who is quite emotional and cries very often.

#29 ckravitz

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 08:06 AM

EDIT

Wrong thread, sorry. I posted a slideshow here thinking it was the picture battle thread. My mistake :blush:

Edited by ckravitz, 23 January 2011 - 08:07 AM.

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#30 padfoot

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 02:19 AM

I don't get how some R/Hr shippers dislike H/Hr (and other) shippers, for shipping them, when we know what happens and most of us will admit to accepting that Ron and Hermione got together - when some of those R/Hr shippers themselves, ship Rupert and Emma; yet they are not a couple? And we get dissed for it? I'm not aiming it at all of you or anyone in particular :doh: Well actually, someone on here said H/Hr "are a joke" so, just wondering.

On second thought, this probably isn't the right place to post this, sorry. Feel free to answer though :P

Edited by padfoot, 25 January 2011 - 02:22 AM.


#31 vida

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:09 AM

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Just thought I'd add my two cents as well. :P

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#32 Dumbledores Woman

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 04:13 PM

I don't get how some R/Hr shippers dislike H/Hr (and other) shippers, for shipping them, when we know what happens and most of us will admit to accepting that Ron and Hermione got together - when some of those R/Hr shippers themselves, ship Rupert and Emma; yet they are not a couple? And we get dissed for it? I'm not aiming it at all of you or anyone in particular :doh: Well actually, someone on here said H/Hr "are a joke" so, just wondering.

On second thought, this probably isn't the right place to post this, sorry. Feel free to answer though :P


First off, LOL at your response Vida! :D

I'm afraid I can't entirely answer your question, Padfoot, because I don't fully know myself. I personally have nothing against H/Hr shippers or any other shippers, the only problem I've ever had (post-DH, anyway)was with those individuals who resorted to bashing characters and even JK herself because the series didn't work out how they wanted. Now, thankfully, I think we've moved past that stage, but I can still see considerable amounts of grievances from both that time and the pre-DH shipping wars. There was a lot of hurt on both sides which some shippers find it difficult to get over, and that's why it's difficult to restart friendly debate threads without getting into arguments, even after all this time.

To address your question more directly, I think that the majority of R/Hr shippers (I generalise, but of course there are exceptions)in this forum have now accepted that H/Hr shippers still exist, just as you have accepted that R/Hr is canon. And for the most part, I don't think we generally have a problem with that. From what I've read on here, the issue seems to arise when one shipper, for example, (quite rightly) states why they like their favourite pairing, and another shipper misinterprets this for them saying that the pairing should have got together. It's a fine line for some who struggle to put past grievances aside and approach shipping from a new light as we are trying to do in this thread. Some people still see the debate thread as a place for arguing for your ship, which essentially it is, but instead of still arguing, for example, that H/Hr SHOULD have got together, we are examining the good points of their relationship from both sides' points of view. That is a huge difference from years ago, so I think it'll take a while for some shippers to get used to it, when they see the debate thread as redundant now we know the outcome. Personally, I think it's a shame. I am happy to admit that I myself still have problems seeing the potential in H/Hr after having argued against them for so long, but I really do want to learn from the 'other side''s perspective, just as I love those H/Hr shippers who've had the courage to try and see R/Hr in a new light. I think through discussing both ships as a whole, we can rediscover good things about both pairings which were lost in the shipping wars, whether as romantic relationships or just as friends.


I still don't think I've actually answered your question, but hopefully my general rambling helps give you a little more insight, in my perspective at least. I think the main thing for all shippers who participate in this thread to remember is that it is not the same debate thread as it was pre-DH. We are not arguing why one couple is better than another or who SHOULD have got together, we are two ships trying to resolve our differences and rediscover all the great things about two couples who, if nothing else, are wonderful friends, in order to increase our understanding and enjoyment of the both the series and fandom as a whole. At least, that's why I'm here. :)
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#33 padfoot

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Posted 29 January 2011 - 11:55 PM

First off, LOL at your response Vida! :D

I'm afraid I can't entirely answer your question, Padfoot, because I don't fully know myself. I personally have nothing against H/Hr shippers or any other shippers, the only problem I've ever had (post-DH, anyway)was with those individuals who resorted to bashing characters and even JK herself because the series didn't work out how they wanted. Now, thankfully, I think we've moved past that stage, but I can still see considerable amounts of grievances from both that time and the pre-DH shipping wars. There was a lot of hurt on both sides which some shippers find it difficult to get over, and that's why it's difficult to restart friendly debate threads without getting into arguments, even after all this time.

To address your question more directly, I think that the majority of R/Hr shippers (I generalise, but of course there are exceptions)in this forum have now accepted that H/Hr shippers still exist, just as you have accepted that R/Hr is canon. And for the most part, I don't think we generally have a problem with that. From what I've read on here, the issue seems to arise when one shipper, for example, (quite rightly) states why they like their favourite pairing, and another shipper misinterprets this for them saying that the pairing should have got together. It's a fine line for some who struggle to put past grievances aside and approach shipping from a new light as we are trying to do in this thread. Some people still see the debate thread as a place for arguing for your ship, which essentially it is, but instead of still arguing, for example, that H/Hr SHOULD have got together, we are examining the good points of their relationship from both sides' points of view. That is a huge difference from years ago, so I think it'll take a while for some shippers to get used to it, when they see the debate thread as redundant now we know the outcome. Personally, I think it's a shame. I am happy to admit that I myself still have problems seeing the potential in H/Hr after having argued against them for so long, but I really do want to learn from the 'other side''s perspective, just as I love those H/Hr shippers who've had the courage to try and see R/Hr in a new light. I think through discussing both ships as a whole, we can rediscover good things about both pairings which were lost in the shipping wars, whether as romantic relationships or just as friends.


I still don't think I've actually answered your question, but hopefully my general rambling helps give you a little more insight, in my perspective at least. I think the main thing for all shippers who participate in this thread to remember is that it is not the same debate thread as it was pre-DH. We are not arguing why one couple is better than another or who SHOULD have got together, we are two ships trying to resolve our differences and rediscover all the great things about two couples who, if nothing else, are wonderful friends, in order to increase our understanding and enjoyment of the both the series and fandom as a whole. At least, that's why I'm here. :)

You've answered it perfectly :) Thanks. I agree with everything you said ^_^

#34 deeplydevoted

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 04:20 AM

I think another thing that still makes interaction with the two groups so volatile is because there is still this 'my ship is better' vibe, even among the home turf of that ship. I've been to many an H/Hr site that bashed R/Hr to no end, but that's because we had a right to, in our own little sanctuaries. It's when people take that sort of mentality OUT of the little hidey holes and start airing it out like dirty laundry that everyone gets snippy. And I mean, you can't help but get the ignorant people who aren't really full out fans but they know the canon shippings and they bash us because they think we're stupid enough to think H/Hr end up together in the end. well DUH mr. ninnyhead, we KNOW they don't. That obviously isn't going to stop us from shipping them anyway! It's annoying and usually encountered on Youtube. I for one try and avoid purposely hostile comments, and only reply in defense of myself when someone decides to be stupid.

Another point I wanted to bring up is something interesting I experienced recently, back in November in fact. I had the fortune of attending the NYC DH Pt 1 premiere, and spent an entire day surrounded by the diehardest of the diehardest HP fans. We sat through cold and a bit of rain just to be sorely dissapointed (none of the stars save Tom Felton even came near the fans) but, I still count that day as one well spent. I don't know if this was just a coincedence or not but about 90% of people around me SHIPPED H/HR. and these were far from your typical buddy who tags along to see Harry Potter because they're bored. these people had read all the books at least twice, many had wands, hats, scarves, you name it. They were perfectly sane people, who read the same books we all did, and yet, they would turn to me and some would say a bit guiltily "you know what...I always did think Harry and Hermione would end up together." or "I was definitely rooting for them, but unfortunately, R/Hr was always end game.". This shocked me in a way that got me thinking...how many R/Hr shippers out there actually at one point wouldn't have minded H/Hr, but slowly, as the mob mentality took over, grew hostile and a bit bitter towards those who shipped it openly?

I for one was not always an H/hr shipper. i was driven to H/Hr around the time the 4th movie came out in part due to my disgust for my own fellow shippers, and the way Dan and Emma portrayed the characters as having such a close, sweet bond that R/Hr couldn't hold a CANDLE to, in my opinion. So even back then i was open and receptive to H/Hr and maybe just didn't know it yet.

It saddens me that R/Hr is persisting so strongly not only because of the fact that it's canon but because peer pressure seems to be tamping out any and all other logical opinions. Lol, it makes it sound like R/Hr is crack and people are forcing you to take it, but that's not really the analogy I wanted to create. I've been in that position where it's either agree with what your friends say or be totally alienated from any further activities that have to do with that topic. It's so easy to just agree and not think about it.

Now I'm digressing a bit and talking about casual or slightly non-casual fans who don't put as much stock into shipping as I would, say. But it really could go for anybody on the internet who isn't intelligently backing up their arguements like some people on here. That just say R/hr forever!! because that's what they know to be true, and they don't ever bother to think otherwise. I wish more of them were more open-minded and were able to see the alternative's as well.

I don't really believe H/Hr shippers should be subject to the same mindset however, because we ARE the alternative. We've been force fed the 'real thing' since day one, apparently, and we're tired of hearing about it. We just want to love our ship in peace and harmony (hehe a pun).

Ok rant done. lol.
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#35 GingerCat

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 05:08 AM

I don't know if this was just a coincedence or not but about 90% of people around me SHIPPED H/HR. and these were far from your typical buddy who tags along to see Harry Potter because they're bored. these people had read all the books at least twice, many had wands, hats, scarves, you name it. They were perfectly sane people, who read the same books we all did, and yet, they would turn to me and some would say a bit guiltily "you know what...I always did think Harry and Hermione would end up together." or "I was definitely rooting for them, but unfortunately, R/Hr was always end game.". This shocked me in a way that got me thinking...how many R/Hr shippers out there actually at one point wouldn't have minded H/Hr, but slowly, as the mob mentality took over, grew hostile and a bit bitter towards those who shipped it openly?


I found that comment to be a bit funny as i have never really thought that adults buying Harry Potter hats, scarves, wands, robes and such were that sane in the first place.

I really do try and understand H/Hr perspectives but i just can't as there is just so much evidence to suggest that Harry and Hermione never had those kind of feelings for one another. It seems to me that H/Hr fans either dislike the idea that the lead guy doesn't get the lead girl or they believe that it is impossible for a male and a female to just be friends.

#36 hermyandron

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 05:18 AM

I for one was not always an H/hr shipper. i was driven to H/Hr around the time the 4th movie came out in part due to my disgust for my own fellow shippers,


can i just say this is absolutely hilarious! i was an h/hr shipper for like two seconds but jumped shipped because i was absolutely disgusted by the way they were acting and the things they said i didn't agree with.

so please stop acting like you guys are the victim here because i am just as disgusted by most h/hr shippers as you are by us!

and lol at 90% being h/hr fans, yea, i highly doubt that..lol

i understand this a totally rude post but when you start acting the victim and acting like you are all high and mighty above the r/hr shippers then it pisses me off!

Edited by hermyandron, 30 January 2011 - 05:20 AM.


#37 GingerCat

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 05:25 AM

and lol at 90% being h/hr fans, yea, i highly doubt that..lol


I think a good indication of the popularity of the pairings is on this very website. The Ron/Hermione thread has 705 posts while the Harry/Hermione has 101. That is a huge difference.

#38 Luciana

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:12 PM

I've got a feeling that the people who like H/Hr it's because Dan and Emma play those characters (maybe I'm wrong), but I think they ship them because they like Dan and Emma together as a couple.
These are my thoughts, because otherwise, I can't understand why many people ship a couple that never happened in the books nor in the movies :unsure:

#39 rupert&emmagrint

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 08:53 PM

I've got a feeling that the people who like H/Hr it's because Dan and Emma play those characters (maybe I'm wrong), but I think they ship them because they like Dan and Emma together as a couple.
These are my thoughts, because otherwise, I can't understand why many people ship a couple that never happened in the books nor in the movies :unsure:


I've wondered that too. A friend of mine is a H/Hr shipper and Dan/Emma shipper. From her POV, the main hero deserves the girl (plus she had a crush on Dan).
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#40 padfoot

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 09:25 PM

I've got a feeling that the people who like H/Hr it's because Dan and Emma play those characters (maybe I'm wrong), but I think they ship them because they like Dan and Emma together as a couple.
These are my thoughts, because otherwise, I can't understand why many people ship a couple that never happened in the books nor in the movies :unsure:

Some people ship Draco/Harry, Harry/Ron, Luna/Harry etc xD And none of those happened.




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